Church Carry?

[PATRON]

What is "registered as a school"? Is that some sort of legal term?

Something is a school or it isn't. If you read MGL definition of a "school" wrt gun laws it covers ONLY primary, secondary and college level schools. Religious "after school programs" don't count. As a kid I went to Hebrew School in a Synagogue and some friends took Catechism at their Catholic Church. Neither make it a "school" where guns are prohibited per MGL.

Even if a church also has a school (primary or secondary), I've never seen one with the school in the sanctuary, it's always been a separate building. Did I miss something? That separate building that taught grades 1-12 would be off-limits, but the sanctuary would not be off-limits.

People get hung up all the time over child care centers, KinderCare, nursery schools, kindergartens, etc. Unless they are co-located in a building that teaches grades 1-12, they don't meet the MA definition of a prohibited place.

Registered,licensed,whatever would make that location a school under the eyes of MA.Here in my area there are two Catholic Churches,both are on and part of the School property.Where would that leave someone if they are carrying a gun to Church?

 

[sweed]

Registered,licensed,whatever would make that location a school under the eyes of MA.Here in my area there are two Catholic Churches,both are on and part of the School property.Where would that leave someone if they are carrying a gun to Church?

Don't go to a Catholic church, lol.

 

[Ultrarunner]

This thread is amusing wrt whether a church can be a school. If you're looking into this level of specifics/details and semantics, there are negotiations going on with the DA after you've been charged. With a jury of your peers you'd be ****ed anyway, so the reality is just conceal it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I used to attend a church that shared the same building with its Christian day school. The school used the sanctuary for chapel, assemblies, and music classes. How does MA law affect CC in that case.

IANAL, but on the conservative side I would say that not carrying into the specific area used by the school DURING their use of that area should suffice.

Growing up Catholic, I can confidently say that some Catholic schools (legitimate K-12 type private schools, not CCD or whatever) are physically attached to the sanctuary. Some do have the school in a separate building as well. I can think of specific examples of both. Also, isn't it not just school buildings, but school grounds that you can't carry? What defines "school grounds" in these situations?

"Physically attached" . . . my interpretation is that it was probably in a different room/usually separated by a fire door (usually required by state fire/building code). If so, staying on the opposite side of said door should (IANAL) be adequate.

More below.

I went to Catholic school, St. Catherine's in Norwood, and the church/parish consisted of a school grades 1-8 so I assume the church was on school grounds.

Finally about a place I know something about. For a number of years I did the computer support for this church and another Catholic church on Rte. 109 (in Westwood IIRC). I never saw a school there. I parked to the left of the building and worked in the office and an apartment upstairs. I recall walking by the sanctuary once or twice. There was no visible school in these areas. Likely the school was on the right side of the church and probably attached by a hallway/fire door.

MGL states that you may not CARRY IN A SCHOOL. It says NOTHING about guns stored in a MV on the property or carrying on other property shared with the school (church, parking lot, etc.). BU owns tons of buildings along Comm Ave that are rented apartments (not dorms), rented retail space, etc. NU does the same and these areas are not off-limits in accordance with MGL.

Yes, in one case, a judge did try to make a claim that even spent shell casings are prohibited anywhere on school property, but that isn't supported by MGL in any way.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

MGL states that you may not CARRY IN A SCHOOL.

No, it says you cannot carry "on one's person".

Under MGL transport in a locked trunk is "carry".

 

[rwl1955]

IANAL, but on the conservative side I would say that not carrying into the specific area used by the school DURING their use of that area should suffice.




"Physically attached" . . . my interpretation is that it was probably in a different room/usually separated by a fire door (usually required by state fire/building code). If so, staying on the opposite side of said door should (IANAL) be adequate.

More below.




Finally about a place I know something about. For a number of years I did the computer support for this church and another Catholic church on Rte. 109 (in Westwood IIRC). I never saw a school there. I parked to the left of the building and worked in the office and an apartment upstairs. I recall walking by the sanctuary once or twice. There was no visible school in these areas. Likely the school was on the right side of the church and probably attached by a hallway/fire door.

MGL states that you may not CARRY IN A SCHOOL. It says NOTHING about guns stored in a MV on the property or carrying on other property shared with the school (church, parking lot, etc.). BU owns tons of buildings along Comm Ave that are rented apartments (not dorms), rented retail space, etc. NU does the same and these areas are not off-limits in accordance with MGL.

Yes, in one case, a judge did try to make a claim that even spent shell casings are prohibited anywhere on school property, but that isn't supported by MGL in any way.

********
Len, St. Catherine's consisted of the church, an elementary school 1-6, another school 7-8, a rectory and a convent where the nuns lived. They were all on one piece of property so is the church considered on school property? All the buildings were separated.

 

[Len-2A Training]

********
Len, St. Catherine's consisted of the church, an elementary school 1-6, another school 7-8, a rectory and a convent where the nuns lived. They were all on one piece of property so is the church considered on school property? All the buildings were separated.

The answer is in what you quoted and Rob Boudries clarification of the term I used. If all the property of St. Catherine's was considered a "school", then a mile or more of Comm Ave in Downtown Boston would also be designated as a "school"! Just not so.

 

[rwl1955]

The answer is in what you quoted and Rob Boudries clarification of the term I used. If all the property of St. Catherine's was considered a "school", then a mile or more of Comm Ave in Downtown Boston would also be designated as a "school"! Just not so.

*******
OK, thanks

 

[Dennis in MA]

One thing that you might want to look out for is some Churches,are on school property.The parking will also be on school property.Also some Churches are registered as schools.

THIS!

Although in a lot of conservative Protestant churches who have attached schools, you will probably get permission pretty easily enough.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

I only go to churches when respecting the ceremonies of friends (weddings, funerals, etc.). I expect some of my church going friends will return the favor when they get invited to my funeral at the gun club. (Hint: If you are invited to my house afterwards, accept ... it probably means you get a free gun).

An atheist friend once announced he would not be caught dead in a church. When he died, his parents wanted a church funeral .... but apparently out of respect for the deceased, left the hearse with the casket parked out front during the service.

One of the saddest services I have ever attended. RIP friend.

 

[MarlboroughMan]

As a Jew (ish, like Julian Edelman) I go to temple once or twice a year at most. For some reason, a lot of my tribe are anti's... which doesn't make sense to me since "never again" is such a strong theme in my religion. Anyway, if I were ever told I couldn't carry in temple I wouldn't go. With some notable exceptions Jews have been sheep too often historically and being an unarmed sitting duck in a place where many of ISIS's arch enemies gather just doesn't seem smart to me.

 

[johnnymac101]

But it you do, do it in style:
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they will be called children of God

You can sit in a pew ONLY if you are carring a single shot.
semi auto must sit in the pew pew pew section.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Anyway, if I were ever told I couldn't carry in temple I wouldn't go.

I used to shoot with a Rabbi whose temple contract contained the clause "The Rabbi will not carry a gun in the temple". On the other hand, a Jewish friend was discretely told by the leadership at his temple that it would be a good idea for him to carry to services "just in case".

 

[Len-2A Training]

As a Jew (ish, like Julian Edelman) I go to temple once or twice a year at most. For some reason, a lot of my tribe are anti's... which doesn't make sense to me since "never again" is such a strong theme in my religion. Anyway, if I were ever told I couldn't carry in temple I wouldn't go. With some notable exceptions Jews have been sheep too often historically and being an unarmed sitting duck in a place where many of ISIS's arch enemies gather just doesn't seem smart to me.

"Never again" is the mantra in Israel. I don't hear that in Jewish services that I've ever attended in the US.

And Jews are the most hated people on this Earth, so we have a lot more enemies than just the ISIS and Muslim extremists.

 

[rudiewhitebwoy]

Luke 22:36 Then said He unto them, “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his pack; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

 

[Radtekk]

Yeah, You don't have to worry about Pagans attacking your church service. There is no afterlife in paganism. Divination occurs in physical life when the person has become honorable through good deeds and eliminating degenerate shitty behavior. Such divination can be passed to the persons next lives from what I understand of it. That is basically what Valhalla is. This why you never see pagans randomly attacking people.

That and their philosophy on life is basically "don't be a jackass".

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[MarlboroughMan]

"Never again" is the mantra in Israel. I don't hear that in Jewish services that I've ever attended in the US.

And Jews are the most hated people on this Earth, so we have a lot more enemies than just the ISIS and Muslim extremists.

Very true... plenty of enemies... and also agreed, at least in this country, too much of a passive attitude (like that couldn't happen here and/or the government will protect us). There seems to be a pretty good organization I subscribed to called Jews for the Preservation of Firearms that appeared to do a lot of good work from what I've read. They merged with the organization SAF (Second Amendment Foundation). I need to read up, but I presume they lobby and do similar work to the NRA. Anyway, the mass shooting and murder of nine people at a black church in Charleston a few years ago by a piece of shit named Dylan Roof should have been a wake up call for all places of worship that "Church Carry" should be encouraged.

 

[Broc]

^ This. The church my wife and I used to attend also ran a daycare during the week. It was a nice source of extra revenue for the church. The Daycare was setup as a separate organization completely independent of the church and was considered a school. i don't believe the church property was considered a school zone but it wouldn't take much for a zealous prosecutor to make the connection and press charges.

It either is part of the school or it isn't. Most of the sidewalks at Bridgewater State University are not part of the university, they are part of the town, and they have school buildings next to them.

Does the law say how many feet away from a school you have to be when carrying?

 

[tuna]

View attachment 202518

Luke 22:36 Then said He unto them, “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his pack; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

Be careful with quoting scripture. The next verse says two is enough.

If I were ever told I couldn't carry by the pastor or elders, I'd ignore it and carry anyway. This is Mass, I'm not going to jail for disobeying a sign or statement. Concealed is concealed.

 

[Kicker96FS]

Be careful with quoting scripture. The next verse says two is enough.

If I were ever told I couldn't carry by the pastor or elders, I'd ignore it and carry anyway. This is Mass, I'm not going to jail for disobeying a sign or statement. Concealed is concealed.

No, he said "Enough!" after two swords were declared. Most likely almost all of them would have said "me too!" As the area they were in/entering was like Roxbury but the real reason was to fulfill a prophecy.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Very true... plenty of enemies... and also agreed, at least in this country, too much of a passive attitude (like that couldn't happen here and/or the government will protect us). There seems to be a pretty good organization I subscribed to called Jews for the Preservation of Firearms that appeared to do a lot of good work from what I've read. They merged with the organization SAF (Second Amendment Foundation). I need to read up, but I presume they lobby and do similar work to the NRA. Anyway, the mass shooting and murder of nine people at a black church in Charleston a few years ago by a piece of shit named Dylan Roof should have been a wake up call for all places of worship that "Church Carry" should be encouraged.

Back ~1990ish GOAL invited SAF to present a seminar on how to effectively "work the system" wrt gun laws. JFPO's leaders were in attendance and I spoke with one of them for a while. My immediate reaction was that he was too radical for my liking . . . I have no patience for radicals on one side or the other. Thus, I have distanced myself from them. As for SAF, I'm not sure about lobbying but can tell you that they have been involved helping Comm2A since before Comm2A started. I've spent quite a bit of time speaking one-on-one with Alan Gottlieb (Founder of SAF) and his Wife (she represents us at the UN as a NGO) at a GOAL banquet the year that Comm2A was founded. I support their efforts and my Wife and I are life members of SAF (as well as GOAL and NRA).

For whatever reason . . . that I totally fail to understand . . . American Jews (as a class of people) generally look to the gov't to protect them and refuse to accept the concept that YOU and I are the "first responders" to any incident that we are involved in and therefore must take responsibility to be able to protect ourselves and our families.

It either is part of the school or it isn't. Most of the sidewalks at Bridgewater State University are not part of the university, they are part of the town, and they have school buildings next to them.

Does the law say how many feet away from a school you have to be when carrying?

BSU is worse than that. State Highways run THROUGH the campus, their police are actually state police with powers to enforce MV laws (something that campus police are not usually allowed to do). The sidewalks and roads still aren't off-limits.

Be careful with quoting scripture. The next verse says two is enough.

If I were ever told I couldn't carry by the pastor or elders, I'd ignore it and carry anyway. This is Mass, I'm not going to jail for disobeying a sign or statement. Concealed is concealed.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell! Unless you are a personal shooting buddy with your pastor, I can't see anything good coming from discussing this with him or the elders. Even amongst our "gun community" I never ask if people carry or not (other than NRA rules about not carrying in their courses), it's the person's personal business and nobody else's business.

 

[Cabinetman]

Let's face it......there are many guys/gals who are carrying in Church these days. I know for certain in our large church that the fella who is a FBI special agent is always carrying. I know that the church has very quietly suggested that it might be a good idea since this is a city church (in MASS btw).

The real issue here, however, is that while you are armed you are going to be worthless unless you've minimized your exposure and maximized your effectiveness and can control your field of fire. You won't be alone in carrying but there's no coordination between you and the other people carrying because you really don't know who they are. If two or three bad guns enter the church with long arms, how would you maximize your presence and position? I have worked that over and over again in my head so that should this ever become a reality (and I literally pray that it won't) I know that I could take down one or maybe two of a group of three but what would that do? It all comes down to the situation. A simple robbery maybe they get away. To make a political statement and threatening to kill the minister, choir or anyone attending the service? Another matter entirely. Also, I typically carry a .380. It's only good to about 30' so do I dare take a shot beyond that and maybe hit someone ? I can carry a bigger and more accurate caliber but in cooler weather.

See? There are a ton of questions that you really need to examine before getting comfortable in a pew with your music in one hand and the pistol in your waistband or pocket. Which pew to sit in, too? Where will the threat come from? How soon do I act? Before they threaten or reach the alter or wait until their demands are set? IF they have long guns, they mean business as far as I'm concerned. As they walk up the church isle the first time sweeping by me is my first and maybe only opportunity to surprise them. They won't think anyone is armed to be sure.

Just thought I'd offer this up for some thought.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

at a GOAL banquet the year that Comm2A was founded

Comm2A had our first meeting with Alan Gottlieb in a conference room at that hotel just before the banquet.

I was expecting Alan to ask us to help him raise money. Instead, he said "bring a good case and I will fund it". 2AF was instrumental in helping us with the citizenship rights case back before anyone really heard of Comm2A.

Makes it impossible for me to say no when I get the occasional call from 2AF asking for a donation.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Comm2A had our first meeting with Alan Gottlieb in a conference room at that hotel just before the banquet.

I was expecting Alan to ask us to help him raise money. Instead, he said "bring a good case and I will fund it". 2AF was instrumental in helping us with the citizenship rights case back before anyone really heard of Comm2A.

Makes it impossible for me to say no when I get the occasional call from 2AF asking for a donation.

Yes, you and I met in the parking lot walking in and you only told me that something big would be announced in a few days. During the banquet's cocktail hour I had a long conversation with Alan and later his Wife.

 

[MarlboroughMan]

Back ~1990ish GOAL invited SAF to present a seminar on how to effectively "work the system" wrt gun laws. JFPO's leaders were in attendance and I spoke with one of them for a while. My immediate reaction was that he was too radical for my liking . . . I have no patience for radicals on one side or the other.

Couldn't agree more... I still get the JFPO publications, but they go directly into my junk-file first and I sort through the ones I want to read and delete the rest. Very good to hear your feedback on SAF and Comm2a. Good stuff.

 

[pastera]

How is this even a question?
If the church is your own, you should be involved enough to be able to determine and/or effect church policy. If you disagree with the firearms policy and cannot change it, move on.
If there is a school onsite and you need permission, then know the pastor/priest/whoever well enough to get written permission.


The reaction in my church to someone finding out you are carrying is most likely going to result in nothing more than an invitation to meet more people who carry to church.

 

[EMTDAD]

yeah.. my church is pretty progressive.. we even have a security team.. mainly for the children's areas.. I know for sure that one is an ex-USMC sniper and another is an avid hunter.. I never asked, but I'm sure at least a few of them are carrying.

 

[fencer]

I know that I could take down one or maybe two of a group of three but what would that do? It all comes down to the situation. A simple robbery maybe they get away. To make a political statement and threatening to kill the minister, choir or anyone attending the service? Another matter entirely. Also, I typically carry a .380. It's only good to about 30' so do I dare take a shot beyond that and maybe hit someone ? I can carry a bigger and more accurate caliber but in cooler weather.

I don't want to question your proficiency with your pistol, nor do I profess to be an expert in small arms tactics, however, I would respectfully suggest that you may be over estimating the effectiveness of the defense you could mount against an armed group. Especially if any in that group were armed with long guns.

I am pretty handy with my carry guns and in general can put the bullets about where I want them to go, but if you choose to engage a guy with an AR with a 380 the chances are overwhelmingly in the rifles favor. In that scenario, my plan would likely be to fire at the assailant to allow a few precious seconds for my family to get to safety. I would not be assuming I could neutralize one or two armed gunmen.
Although, a direct hit at 30' with a 380 would probably sting a bit.

 

[Cabinetman]

Believe me when I tell you that I'm woefully aware of the limitations of a .380, especially one of the mouse guns like the Ruger or Keltec. I'm under no illusions that would make it practical beyond just about how far I could throw it. But it's Summer and concealment is not easy as most of you know so having it is better than nothing. That's why the only scenario that would make it work is up close and personal. Bad guys walking by within 20' or so catching someone totally by surprise would be about the only situation I could concoct.

What I continuously practice with that little pistol with the heavy trigger is this; I keep it in one of my front pockets, left or right. I'm ambidextrous and can shoot pretty much equally in either hand. At the range I set up a target at about 7 yards with a center mass bullseye. What I practice is not fast but a very deliberate, relatively slow draw and an "instinctive" straight arm aim and fire with no stops or warnings. Draw and shoot, period. The idea is to get the upper hand by total surprise hoping that the bad guys would assume no one would carry in church. The little pistol also has a laser on it only to provide intimidation if needed. All of this, however, is moot for so many reasons. Like you've said, if I could provide a distraction so my family could get out of harms way that would be fine too.

Let's face it; we're talking about a nightmarish situation at best, one that could have a zillion different wrinkles. We attend a big MA city church and there would be nothing stopping some gang-bangers from just waltzing into the front doors. I just need to know that I have the muscle memory and mental disposition to do what's best in any scenario. There may not be a good solution at all. I just hope that I would have the fortitude to do what was necessary. I'm hoping that I'd be facing pistols, anyway, knowing how hard it is to be accurate with them as opposed to long guns. Good thing the bad guys can't have large capacity mags isn't it?