chambering a round

[depicts]

I learned to use the slide stop to release the bolt because I was told the gun is designed to fire with a full rack of the slide on spring power, as it does under recoil.

I guess it never occurred to anyone teaching me that you could make the habit of hand releasing the slide from all the way back, and it would be as dependable. It would also help to build the muscle memory to clear the gun in a jam It would take some training, as I've seen more failures to go into battery when released by hand then when released by the slide stop.

Not to get off subject, but at my age, if the heart rate goes from 140 to 180, I won't need the gun, I'll need electric paddles!

 

[TonyDedo]

Careful if you have target sights on your gun! I did that over the weekend out of habit with my new 1911 and tore up the palm of my hand on the sharp edges!!

That's why I've been "cheating" with my new 1911, and using the slide stop. By the end of my first day shooting it the rear sights had gashed my hand so well I was bleeding pretty profusely.

I've got to take it to a gunsmith this weekend for unrelated issues, but I'm going to see if I can get him to soften the edges while I'm there.

 

[TonyD]

A little more on Fine motor skills

From the Force Science Institute; 1/26/07

DO HIGH HEART RATES REALLY HURT FINE MOTOR SKILLS?

We all know that during a lethal-force encounter the heart
rate rises dramatically and the loss of fine motor skills
occurs around 175 bpm and above. Our firearms trainers feel
that racking the slide of your pistol with a grasping motion
(slide between the bottom of the palm and fingertips) to
load a round or clear a malfunction is better than hitting
the slide release lever with your thumb. That's because
large muscle groups are involved in the grasping motion
rather than the fine motor skill of using the thumb.

Is there really that big a difference? My trigger finger has
no problem pulling the trigger under high stress. Why
wouldn't my thumb respond the same way? I have used the
thumb release method for years and years, but I don't know
if it will work under high stress. Any thoughts?

Heath Appleton
Deputy Probation Ofcr. II
Gang Intervention & Suppression Unit Kern County (CA) Probation Dept.

DR. BILL LEWINSKI, Executive Director of the Force Science
Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato,
RESPONDS:

The idea that a high heart rate causes a loss of fine motor
skills is a myth. The culprit is fear or anger, not heart
rate per se.

It's true that if you reach a very high heart rate through
physical exertion and are trying to both sight a handgun and
breathe, for example, you may experience some MINOR issues
with fine psychomotor skills. However, keep in mind that
well-trained biathlon athletes fire accurate shots with a
pulse of 180 bpm, and even mediocre sandlot basketball
players under the high pulse rates of a very competitive
game make pretty good shots.

We much more noticeably lose psychomotor skills under fear
or anger, primarily because of our inability to focus
attention properly when distressed. The key is training.
With a proper training program that allows you to repeatedly
practice your skills while under a high degree of stress,
you will build your confidence and reduce the impact of
negative emotions so that you can maintain your fine-motor
dexterity when faced with real-life challenges. In other
words, good training can help you build a history of
successful performance under high stress.

Heath, don't worry about your thumb.

 

[Secesh]

One thing I don't see talked about is us poor lefty's. If fine motor skills go out the door when under stress then I'm screwed. I handle my 1911 as follows. When the magazine empties I push the mag release button with my left middle finger. While inserting the fresh magazine my trigger finger moves up to the slide release. When the magazine is seated I press down on the slide release and my finger continues down to seat itself on the trigger. I'm going to practice racking the slide instead, but if I can't manage to get my finger to the mag release then the rest is pretty much useless. My method is completely self-taught by means of what seems natural. And it may be entirely wrong, I've just never shot with another lefty.

 

[adweisbe]

One thing I don't see talked about is us poor lefty's. If fine motor skills go out the door when under stress then I'm screwed. I handle my 1911 as follows. When the magazine empties I push the mag release button with my left middle finger. While inserting the fresh magazine my trigger finger moves up to the slide release. When the magazine is seated I press down on the slide release and my finger continues down to seat itself on the trigger. I'm going to practice racking the slide instead, but if I can't manage to get my finger to the mag release then the rest is pretty much useless. My method is completely self-taught by means of what seems natural. And it may be entirely wrong, I've just never shot with another lefty.

Using the index finger is usually what is instructed to lefties for using the magazine release. When I am reloading weak hand I go straight to racking the slide because not all slide releases can be reached left handed by a finger and it is quite a reach for me. On the 1911 and S&W Autos for instance I can. But on the Glock, Walther P99, and Sig it cannot be reached by me.

 

[TonyD]

One thing I don't see talked about is us poor lefty's. If fine motor skills go out the door when under stress then I'm screwed. I handle my 1911 as follows. When the magazine empties I push the mag release button with my left middle finger. While inserting the fresh magazine my trigger finger moves up to the slide release. When the magazine is seated I press down on the slide release and my finger continues down to seat itself on the trigger. I'm going to practice racking the slide instead, but if I can't manage to get my finger to the mag release then the rest is pretty much useless. My method is completely self-taught by means of what seems natural. And it may be entirely wrong, I've just never shot with another lefty.

Try using your right index finger to release to magazine or see about having your 1911 set up for a left hand mag release.

 

[adweisbe]

Is he holding the gun in his left hand or his right hand? Either way reversible magazine releases and ambi-releases (though nice) are not necessary. Just switch between the index finger and thumb.

 

[Secesh]

Is he holding the gun in his left hand or his right hand? Either way reversible magazine releases and ambi-releases (though nice) are not necessary. Just switch between the index finger and thumb.

Not sure what's being said. I'm holding it in my left hand. Releasing the mag & slide release with my left hand seems right that's why I never bothered moving the mag release to the right side. A 1911 is the only gun I've tried this with so your right it might not work with a different model.

 

[matt1956]

I look at it as an un need excess where on the slide stop.

I find it no faster/slower to perform either. But as it has been stated, it is a slide stop, not slide release.

 

[adweisbe]

it is a slide stop, not slide release.

Depends on which parts diagram you look at.

 

[drgrant]

I look at it as an un need excess where on the slide stop.

How is that wear any greater than the wear incurred by the slide
slamming into the slide stop when the mag is empty.... ?

I'm sure someone has done it, but I'd also place a wager that guns with
worn out slide stops have seen in excess of many 10s of thousands of
rounds, easily.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

I find it no faster/slower to perform either.

I disagree strongly. Think about it from a time-motion perspective.

Performing an emergency reload using the slide release:

1) punch mag release as your support hand grabs a new mag.
2) withdraw the new mag.
3) insert new magazine.
4) left-hand takes a firing grip as left thumb hits slide release.
5) fire next shot.

In contrast, an emergency reload by drawing back on the slide:
1) punch mag release as your support hand grabs a new mag.
2) withdraw the new mag.
3) insert new magazine.
4) left-hand grabs top of slide.
5) left-hand pulls slide all the way to rear and releases.
6) left-hand moves forward to take a firing grip.
7) fire next shot.

Drawing back on the slide requires at least 2 additional movements of your left hand. That movement doesn't come for free -- it takes time.

Both ways work.

 

[matt1956]

How is that wear any greater than the wear incurred by the slide
slamming into the slide stop when the mag is empty.... ?

I'm sure someone has done it, but I'd also place a wager that guns with
worn out slide stops have seen in excess of many 10s of thousands of
rounds, easily.

-Mike

i'm jsut basing this on what I have seen with my own guns.

by pulling the slide stop down, it would "scrape" the notch that the slide stop fits into. By pulling it back and allowing the slid stop to drop... no scraping.

The slide stop does not scrape the slide stop notch when the mag empties because it is pushed up after the last round is fired and the slide goes back further then the slide stop, then moves forward and stoping on the fully upward slide stop.

IMO, no scraping = no excess wear. maybe i'm just anal when it comes to that stuff. Correct, it may take 5k to 10k round to see the effect... anyway... was just adding my 2 cents.

 

[matt1956]

I disagree strongly. Think about it from a time-motion perspective.

Performing an emergency reload using the slide release:

1) punch mag release as your support hand grabs a new mag.
2) withdraw the new mag.
3) insert new magazine.
4) left-hand takes a firing grip as left thumb hits slide release.
5) fire next shot.

In contrast, an emergency reload by drawing back on the slide:
1) punch mag release as your support hand grabs a new mag.
2) withdraw the new mag.
3) insert new magazine.
4) left-hand grabs top of slide.
5) left-hand pulls slide all the way to rear and releases.
6) left-hand moves forward to take a firing grip.
7) fire next shot.

Drawing back on the slide requires at least 2 additional movements of your left hand. That movement doesn't come for free -- it takes time.

Both ways work.

correct, but that would also depend on the position of the slide stop, on my P-85 it actually requires less effort and "fumbling" (for lack of a better word) to release the slide by pulling it back then pushing down on the slide stop. I know that you are saying pushing the slide stop is less movement of the left hand... but on my particular gun, it still requires me to move my left hand to push down the slide release and then reposition it to the grip.

(and I actually dont grab the top of the slide, but rather pull it from the back)

see... now Im curious... tonight I'm going to take a stop watch and test this and see what is faster.

I would guess in the end, what works for some, may not work for others.

 

[adweisbe]

Wear is a non-issue. There are guns of inferior steel that wear from this, but the top of the slide stop/slide release is serrated or checkered on every gun you have ever seen for a reason by the designers who would probably know best.

I have a S&W 1911 @ 5k that shows no wear and I use the slide stop every time.

 

[JimConway]

M1911
You said the following:
"In contrast, an emergency reload by drawing back on the slide:
1) punch mag release as your support hand grabs a new mag.
2) withdraw the new mag.
3) insert new magazine.
4) left-hand grabs top of slide.
5) left-hand pulls slide all the way to rear and releases.
6) left-hand moves forward to take a firing grip.
7) fire next shot.

They way that we teach this is allow you hand to continue upward after inserting the new mag and rack ing slide. It is almost one motion. Yes, I agree that it takes a little longer.

From a training perspective, this motion is the same one used to load the gun and to clear malfunctions. This approach seems to work better with cold hands, wet hands and with gloves.
The other thing to consider is Hick's law that states it takes 50% longer if there are 2 ways to solve a problem, i.e. If you alternate between the two ways. Pick any way that pleases you but stick with it in all situations

 

[M1911]

They way that we teach this is allow you hand to continue upward after inserting the new mag and rack ing slide. It is almost one motion. Yes, I agree that it takes a little longer.

I'm guessing that you teach that this motion should be quite vigorous, with your left hand moving a fair bit behind the gun after cycling the slide to its full travel. This helps ensure that you don't short-stroke the slide. It also ensures that your left hand is that much further from the gun, so it has that much farther to move to get back to the grip...

From a training perspective, this motion is the same one used to load the gun and to clear malfunctions.

As we discussed in the previous thread, this is the one argument that makes some sense to me. Not enough for me to change, but I can understand the reasoning.

This approach seems to work better with cold hands, wet hands and with gloves.

That has not been my experience.

The other thing to consider is Hick's law that states it takes 50% longer if there are 2 ways to solve a problem, i.e. If you alternate between the two ways. Pick any way that pleases you but stick with it in all situations

Hold on there partner. I've never suggested that a person should sometimes do emergency reloads one way and sometimes another. So please don't imply that I am. In fact, if you review the previous thread, you'll see that I give the same recommendation that Ayoob gave in LFI-1 when I took it: try it both ways, see which way works for you, then train way.

 

[TonyD]

.
Hold on there partner. I've never suggested that a person should sometimes do emergency reloads one way and sometimes another. So please don't imply that I am. In fact, if you review the previous thread, you'll see that I give the same recommendation that Ayoob gave in LFI-1 when I took it: try it both ways, see which way works for you, then train way.

I think it was a general statement for everyone.

I know that it takes no longer for me to sling-shot than it does to use the slide stop. The reason is is that I have to shift my grip to manipulate the lever before reattaining my weak-hand grip. I've never had, nor seen anyone else, have a problem short stroking the slide and I don't do this vigorous movement that slaps myself in the chest. Beacuse of this and that it reenforces the movements of the malfunction clearing process is the reason I, personally, changed after years of using the slide release.

 

[M1911]

I know that it takes no longer for me to sling-shot than it does to use the slide stop.

I suggest that you try it with a shot-timer. You might be surprised.

 

[TonyD]

I suggest that you try it with a shot-timer. You might be surprised.

I suggest that I have and that's the reason I know.