Center hold vs. 6 o'clock

84ta406

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I was doing some reading regarding a new pistol I have and it said to use a 6 oclock hold, the sights were already set before I got it for a center hold so I didn't mess with them. I understand the concept of both but why one vs. the other? I read some people prefer 6 for bullseye shooting which to me makes sense but how do you go back and forth from different guns without taking a shot and going "oh shit, wrong sight picture."

What do you guys prefer? Why?
 
What's your goal? Self defense? I prefer center hold for that and all my pistols are set accordingly, assuming adjustable sights. Fixed sights work for center hold at typical distances as well.

For match rifle shooting, as long as your eyesight is good enough to focus on the front sight and resolve the edge of the black bull- 6:00 hold is most accurate. You can reference the white border to know exactly where you are aiming. Some like a thin line of white to show. I think @mac1911 has a chart for this. If your eyesight isn't great, center hold or as mac calls it center of fuzz is better.
 
I used to be a 6 o'clock hold fan when I was shooting paper targets at an indoor range. Nowadays I find center easier. Put the front sight on what you want to hit and go. Size/shape of the target are irrelevant.
 
What's your goal? Self defense? I prefer center hold for that and all my pistols are set accordingly, assuming adjustable sights. Fixed sights work for center hold at typical distances as well.

For match rifle shooting, as long as your eyesight is good enough to focus on the front sight and resolve the edge of the black bull- 6:00 hold is most accurate. You can reference the white border to know exactly where you are aiming. Some like a thin line of white to show. I think @mac1911 has a chart for this. If your eyesight isn't great, center hold or as mac calls it center of fuzz is better.
Well I have a Model 41 and a MK IV 22/45 Lite and I believe both are supposed to be a 6 hold, for their intended purposes. All my other semi autos and such are center holds as they're not adjustable and quite frankly I want them to be point and shoot anyways.
For my target pistols, I do shoot them pretty well but I question if moving the sights for a 6 hold will be more beneficial with regards to indoor bullseye shooting where the lighting isn't the best, my eyes are mediocre and the sights are "blacked out" which I have a little trouble focusing on. Maybe it'll help especially at distance?
 
I use a 6 o'clock hold on my target pistols. Point of aim for my carry pistols.
If by chance I am in a scenario where I am using my pistol to defend myself and I forget and use a 6 o'clock hold, then some baddie just got his nuts blown off.
 
If you are shooting a standard NRA slow fire pistol target at 50 feet, the "black" includes the seven ring which has a 3.07 inch diameter:
50 foot slow fire -
50 yard Standard American reduced to 50 feet, 7, 8, 9 and 10 rings black. Target No. B-2.
10 ring .....................0.90 in
9 ring .......................1.54 in
8 ring .......................2.23 in
7 ring .......................3.07 in

6 ring .......................4.16 in
5 ring .......................5.56 in
4 ring .......................7.33 in

Which means that a six o'clock hold will result in the bullet hitting 1.5 inches higher than the point of aim if it hits a center "ten". Most shooters are going to practice defensive shooting at a closer range, like seven yards. This means that the bullet with a six o'clock hold will be even less than 1.5 inches above the point of hold.
I have seen many targets that NES members have posted/bragged about with six inch groups at 15 feet... [shocked] do you really think that the 1 to 1.5 inch difference between point of aim and point of impact matters?
I understand the dilemma because shooting at a round target with a six o'clock hold makes for a well defined point of aim but you want to get a good "score" so you get the gun to print a bit higher in the center of the black. There are two obvious solutions:
1. Using a round target, sight the gun to hit at the bottom of the black, hold at the bottom of the black. Be happy with a good group.
2. Don't use a round target, hold center, hit center.

An interesting problem with IHMSA targets back when we still shot them around here (with open sights) was that the targets are not symmetrical on either axis, up/ down, left/right.
For example, there is more "Turkey on the right of center, more "pig on the left.
1592058810507.png
You will thank me for telling you that if you are defending against a squad of invading chickens, pigs, turkeys, and rams.
Pro tip*:
1. If they are coming toward you, they are a whole lot narrower. You have to flank them to get a better shot.
2. They are a whole lot harder to see but easier to hit when you shoot the black side, not the fluorescent orange side.

* I will justify the use of the term as I took first place at the 1979 IHMSA Mass State Championship held at the Framingham Sportsmen club (now Dba Hopkinton Sportsman Association). I had the highest .22 offhand score. Small metal animals have feared me ever since... [laugh]
 
I prefer 6 o’clock to POA. Consistency and training are the most important things to consider with firearms effectiveness IMHO. All my rifles have the same HK BUIS set up for 6 o’clock and zeroed at the same 50/200. Doesn’t matter if I’m using my AR, Tavor or CZ, they work the same.

Why change things up for pistols or worse, run both sight systems? Choose one and stick with it. Don’t have to try and remember in the heat of the moment which sight picture is needed. Every time you shoot, you’re reinforcing the same “muscle-memory”, etc. Last, I really hate POA because it covers the target. We are responsible for every round that goes down range. If the target is covered by the front site, can you see what’s behind?

Last point, sure it’s simple to just put a sight on the target and shoot, but what if the target is behind cover/partial cover? POA is good for one type of shoot, not necessarily all. Opinions are mine. YMMV.

* I’ve had pistols with both and decided to stick with 6 o’clock.
 
What's your goal? Self defense? I prefer center hold for that and all my pistols are set accordingly, assuming adjustable sights. Fixed sights work for center hold at typical distances as well.

For match rifle shooting, as long as your eyesight is good enough to focus on the front sight and resolve the edge of the black bull- 6:00 hold is most accurate. You can reference the white border to know exactly where you are aiming. Some like a thin line of white to show. I think @mac1911 has a chart for this. If your eyesight isn't great, center hold or as mac calls it center of fuzz is better.
Its all a matter of eye sight , preference and end result.
For me. I have and will use 6 oc for known distance and fixed target size.
I will use center hold as long as I can see well . Often I loose the front sight completely in the black blur.
Especially with sight found ob K98 and Arisaka and thin front sights. Why all my service rifle/cmp games rifles have the widest front sight rules allow.
Now for anything I want to point and shoot at and have a high probability to hit its center hold. Especially with pistols
Short answer-
Fixed distance and target size- 6 oc
Everything else - center hold
Then toss in eye sight and try what ever works
 
If you are shooting a standard NRA slow fire pistol target at 50 feet, the "black" includes the seven ring which has a 3.07 inch diameter:
50 foot slow fire -
50 yard Standard American reduced to 50 feet, 7, 8, 9 and 10 rings black. Target No. B-2.
10 ring .....................0.90 in
9 ring .......................1.54 in
8 ring .......................2.23 in
7 ring .......................3.07 in

6 ring .......................4.16 in
5 ring .......................5.56 in
4 ring .......................7.33 in

Which means that a six o'clock hold will result in the bullet hitting 1.5 inches higher than the point of aim if it hits a center "ten". Most shooters are going to practice defensive shooting at a closer range, like seven yards. This means that the bullet with a six o'clock hold will be even less than 1.5 inches above the point of hold.
I have seen many targets that NES members have posted/bragged about with six inch groups at 15 feet... [shocked] do you really think that the 1 to 1.5 inch difference between point of aim and point of impact matters?
I understand the dilemma because shooting at a round target with a six o'clock hold makes for a well defined point of aim but you want to get a good "score" so you get the gun to print a bit higher in the center of the black. There are two obvious solutions:
1. Using a round target, sight the gun to hit at the bottom of the black, hold at the bottom of the black. Be happy with a good group.
2. Don't use a round target, hold center, hit center.

An interesting problem with IHMSA targets back when we still shot them around here (with open sights) was that the targets are not symmetrical on either axis, up/ down, left/right.
For example, there is more "Turkey on the right of center, more "pig on the left.
View attachment 364884
You will thank me for telling you that if you are defending against a squad of invading chickens, pigs, turkeys, and rams.
Pro tip*:
1. If they are coming toward you, they are a whole lot narrower. You have to flank them to get a better shot.
2. They are a whole lot harder to see but easier to hit when you shoot the black side, not the fluorescent orange side.

* I will justify the use of the term as I took first place at the 1979 IHMSA Mass State Championship held at the Framingham Sportsmen club (now Dba Hopkinton Sportsman Association). I had the highest .22 offhand score. Small metal animals have feared me ever since... [laugh]
Nice! Those target are what 6 moa ish? I shoot at the set for air rifle in my yard and for the reason of different size and shape im a “slightly low” center hold on those critter targets Which gives me some wiggle room.
 
I used to be a 6 o'clock hold fan when I was shooting paper targets at an indoor range. Nowadays I find center easier. Put the front sight on what you want to hit and go. Size/shape of the target are irrelevant.
This is why ai try to use center hold.
 
if you sight in your AR to point of aim at 25 yards/meters, it'll be about on for a 6 o'clock hold on a bullseye at 100yds, & about on for point of aim at 300yds/meters
here are the 25 yd/m targets for carbine or rifle barrels:
Thats dependent on the size of the aiming black.
For combat zero type shooting tour just looking for hits on target to X yards with out changing your sight settings.
If your shooting NRA highpower/service rifle /cmp you are shooting known distance and aiming black sizes and have your come ups for each yardage line dialed in .
Ex if you dialed in at 100 yards to hit the X ring with a SR1 if you do not adjust your sights your going to hit low 10s high 9s depending on how tight you can hold.
 
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What's your goal? Self defense? I prefer center hold for that and all my pistols are set accordingly, assuming adjustable sights. Fixed sights work for center hold at typical distances as well.

For match rifle shooting, as long as your eyesight is good enough to focus on the front sight and resolve the edge of the black bull- 6:00 hold is most accurate. You can reference the white border to know exactly where you are aiming. Some like a thin line of white to show. I think @mac1911 has a chart for this. If your eyesight isn't great, center hold or as mac calls it center of fuzz is better.
not the chart your thinking of but close.
 
6 o'clock hold at bottom edge of paper for target. Try it, less stress on trying to hit the black, pretend you are shooting at the edge of paper. Also try shooting for center of a blank piece of paper, or flip your target around. I do this because I like it , but It is also much fun to let some one shoot the gun , ie , a newbie with attitude, and tell them center hold, and they can not hit the paper.
 
My experience with 6 o'clock vs poa is that a 6 o'clock hold gives you much more of a target to aim at and aim at consistently, and is best for a known target size at a known distance at a known sight setting. Point of aim is best for fast shooting at multiple shapes, sizes, and distances within reason.
For example, I shot Mini Walls today at Wallum, a 6 o'clock hold would be a definite disadvantage with the variety of targets presented at a steel match.
 
What's your goal? Self defense? I prefer center hold for that and all my pistols are set accordingly, assuming adjustable sights. Fixed sights work for center hold at typical distances as well.

For match rifle shooting, as long as your eyesight is good enough to focus on the front sight and resolve the edge of the black bull- 6:00 hold is most accurate. You can reference the white border to know exactly where you are aiming. Some like a thin line of white to show. I think @mac1911 has a chart for this. If your eyesight isn't great, center hold or as mac calls it center of fuzz is better.

I like the same setup as well...center hold for all my pistols (works well for steel shooting, punching paper, etc.) and 6 o'clock with my milsurps if possible, depending on range...
 
I use a 6 o'clock hold on my target pistols. Point of aim for my carry pistols.
If by chance I am in a scenario where I am using my pistol to defend myself and I forget and use a 6 o'clock hold, then some baddie just got his nuts blown off.
How far down do you aim at the 6? From nuts to chest there is well over a foot.

OP, I use 6 for target shooting with iron sights. To me, it makes it easier to hit center when shooting fast, think 8 shots in 2 or 3 seconds.

So far, the best sight I have ever shot, and the one I acquire targets faster all the way out to 400 yards is the Soule Sight in my Sharps. I just love shooting with the Soule Sight, it makes shooting long range so easy and fast. I am faster with a Soule than I am with a scope or regular iron sights.
 
How far down do you aim at the 6? From nuts to chest there is well over a foot.

OP, I use 6 for target shooting with iron sights. To me, it makes it easier to hit center when shooting fast, think 8 shots in 2 or 3 seconds.

So far, the best sight I have ever shot, and the one I acquire targets faster all the way out to 400 yards is the Soule Sight in my Sharps. I just love shooting with the Soule Sight, it makes shooting long range so easy and fast. I am faster with a Soule than I am with a scope or regular iron sights.
even 100 plus years ago they knew the advantage of aperture style sights, long sight radius ands the need for larger or smaller aperture sights. It was just more expensive

Modern version for picatinny rail/ Fl;at top AR
1592195193090.png
 
I was doing some reading regarding a new pistol I have and it said to use a 6 oclock hold, the sights were already set before I got it for a center hold so I didn't mess with them. I understand the concept of both but why one vs. the other? I read some people prefer 6 for bullseye shooting which to me makes sense but how do you go back and forth from different guns without taking a shot and going "oh shit, wrong sight picture."

What do you guys prefer? Why?
As far as which hold and switching back and forth between guns......I have guns that are target guns and guns that are defensive guns. I know which ones are which....and just remember what one I'm using. So.....I don't keep a target gun in my holster when I'm out and about nor do I keep a target gun in my nightstand.
 
As far as which hold and switching back and forth between guns......I have guns that are target guns and guns that are defensive guns. I know which ones are which....and just remember what one I'm using. So.....I don't keep a target gun in my holster when I'm out and about nor do I keep a target gun in my nightstand.
When you do find yourself forgetting what your particular firearm is zeroed for , typ e of ammo or any other info luggage tags are great. You can simple attach them to your sling swivels or trigger guard.
 
I'd been shooting for years before I ever heard the term "six o'clock hold," and when I gave it a try it made no sense to me.

Now that my eyesight is even further into the toilet, it makes even less sense. But then, minute-of-man has always been what I'm going for. I can see how the 6 hold works for pure target shooting.
 
Just to give an example of accuracy for iron sight target shooting-

The NRA SR target is used for Highpower stages at 200 yards or most CMP rifle matches. The 10-ring is ~3.5 MOA in size and the X-ring is ~1.5 MOA. I'm starting to get some age related eye issues but yesterday in competition was able to shoot a 'clean' (100/100) including 3 X's in slow prone and a 97 with 3 X's in rapid fire. My typical 5-shot best with irons is ~1.2 MOA at 100 yards on a good day with my most accurate iron sight match rifles.
 
With aperture sighs like the Parker Hale on my BSA or the Redfield Olympic on my Remington, the front sight can be swapped out between globe and post. When the post is in it gives a 6 o'clock hold or what my granddad called "lollipop" the target.
The globe in general is easier for targets as you center a circle within a circle while looking through a circle. When I shoot silhouette I put in the post and don't need to make sight adjustments
 
I've read two descriptions of 6 oclock. One seems more like center hold to me so I think they were wrong. I've always just split my target with the front post. Yes some guns I've had to maybe cover a little more or less maybe. But I've never put my sight at the bottom of the target or anything. Granted I don't shoot matches or specialized target pistols.

I went back on Springfields webpage for the manual of their 1911s. It mentions center hold for 25 yards but then makes a confusing statement a out maybe 6oclock...why would you aim lower for longer range?
 
I use both by way of handguns depending on style with some exceptions. All my S/A's have non adjustable sights except a single six convertible. The front sights are made deliberately tall and you as an end user can file them to your personal preference, if you wish, which I do, except the Colts (value reasons). I file them to have POA, POI. The single 6 needs the adjustable for the differing POI's between 22 LR and 22 mag. As I use it for practice/warm-ups for my centerfires, it is set for center also.
All my D/A's and autos have adjustable sights except a few and they are set for a six o'clock. The ones without adjustable sights are a 642, PPK/s and a lend lease colt 1911. Fortunately, they are dead on as is without any made-up eye adjustments. The 642 and colt are six o'clocks and the PPK/s is a POA, POI.

Non-scoped rifles and rifle sighted shotguns (some are smooth bore) are 6 o'clock. Scoped are POA, POI.
 
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