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Celox vs Quick Clot

L

Lewitt

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This weekend I taught a block at the Summit of the Armed Society. I reviewed the most common commercially available hemostatics on the market, Celox and Quick Clot. We demonstrated the use of Celox powder, gauze (impregnated), trauma gauze (homogenous), the Celox A syringe style applicator, QC military and LEO Z-Fold gauze.

To perform the test we used real tissue with real gunshot and knife wounds and pumped real blood at arteriel pressure through the wound channels. The results were astounding and will help all shooters make an informed decision about what they put in their IFAK!

Here's a teaser from the 3 hours of video:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...8519090605677&id=100001508345368&notif_t=like

Bill Lewitt
Paramedic, RN
Lead Medical Instructor
Tactical Development Group
www.WayoftheGun.com
 
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I have 3 hours of video from this demostration. As soon as it is edited, I'm going to post it. I'll make an announcement here but if you want to see the larger unedited clips, make sure you subscribe to my page at WayoftheGun.com

Who is carrying hemostatics What do you carry?

Bill Lewitt
Paramedic, RN
Lead Medical Instructor
Tactical Development Group
www.WayoftheGun.com
 
Bill,
Outstanding class, I learned a ton. Thanks again for putting it on and answering all of our questions. I keep some Celox powder in the truck and at home, but after your class I think I'm going to move to the trauma gauze as well.
 
My pleasure! I love teaching and I had a great time at the Summit. I'm glad you learned somthing from the lecture and if what you saw informed you as to how the gear you have will work when you need it, then Mission Accomplished.

The video that Dave shot will be edited, produced, and up on Youtube pretty soon so we can all enjoy pigday together!

Bill Lewitt
Paramedic, RN
Led Medical Instructor
Tactical Development Group
www.WayoftheGun.com

Gadsden said:
Bill,
Outstanding class, I learned a ton. Thanks again for putting it on and answering all of our questions. I keep some Celox powder in the truck and at home, but after your class I think I'm going to move to the trauma gauze as well.
Click to expand...
 
Interesting stuff, the military sure seems to love it. Personally I would only consider it for catastrophic bleeding that a tourniquet just is not stopping. There's a reason why most EMS crews don't carry this stuff.
 
yea, one of the big problems with it is that it may save your life, but when you get back to a surgeon they have to cut out a lot of the tissue since the clotting agent can't be removed any other way. Surgeons hate the stuff because they have to do a lot more damage by removing it before they reconstruct, but better that than dead.
 
I always wonder how Celox or trauma gauze keep their effectiveness in hot temperature. I want to keep it in my car as the get-home kit, but always concerned that these first aid chemicals degrades in hot weather.
 
beaker said:
yea, one of the big problems with it is that it may save your life, but when you get back to a surgeon they have to cut out a lot of the tissue since the clotting agent can't be removed any other way. Surgeons hate the stuff because they have to do a lot more damage by removing it before they reconstruct, but better that than dead.
Click to expand...

It's why many on this board you should just apply pressure and wait EMS for treatment. An alternative is Yunnan Baiyao, a traditional Chinese trauma treatment that has been used on battle fields for over 100 years. No expensive at all:
http://www.helpofchinesemedicine.com/buyyunnanbaiyao.htm
 
Any clotting agent should be used as a last resort, not a first option. If you own these and not a tourniquet, you're doing it wrong.
 
Mass-diver said:
formula of Yunnan Baiyao is kept in secret - no thanks
Click to expand...

Diver,

Yunan baiyao is a simple herbal preperation and is completely safe. Ive used it on simple cuts but it is a stiptic NOT a hemostatic. That being said, hemostatics are always the last line intervention, after direct pressure, brute force, and a TQ. In the original TCCC guidelines, hemostatics were placed prior to the use of a tourniquet but research and experience showed they worked better afterward.

Beaker -

Not sure where you got your info but hemostatics do not require surgical removal and do not destroy tissue. In my personal tests the hemostatic gauze can be removed in a single piece simply by pulling it out. Any wound requiring a hemostatic will require a surgeon to perform the vascular repair and to close the wound but the tissue loss will be determined by the wound tract, not the application of a hemostatic.

Xtry -

You are correct! Carrying a hemostatic without a tourniquet is a mistake (or the rest of the IFAK for that matter).

Military hemostatics will sit in a conex container for months or years before use so storage temp is not an issue.

One of the reasons i did the hemostatic seminar this year was bc of all the misunderstanding and disinformation surrounding their use.

As soon as the video is edited, I'll post it. I can't wait for your impressions and feedback!

Bill Lewitt
Paramedic, RN
Lead Medical Instructor
Tactical Development Group
WayoftheGun.com
 
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xtry51 said:
Still can't open FB page.
Click to expand...

Are you clicking on the link or trying to copy and past the URL into your browser? Clicking on the link works just fine. What you see on the page is a highly abbreviated version of a much longer link. Whenever you put in a long link (such as www. facebook. com/photo.php ?v=10150702930907632 &notif_t=video_comment_tagged#!/permalink.php? story_fbid=128519090605677 &id=100001508345368 &notif_t=like), the forum automatically displays something smaller, but keeps the actual link in place.

Technical crap aside, Bill did a fantastic presentation at the Summit.

Ken
 
Lewitt said:
Diver,

Yunan baiyao is a simple herbal preperation and is completely safe.
Beaker -


Bill Lewitt
Paramedic, RN
Lead Medical Instructor
Tactical Development Group
WayoftheGun.com
Click to expand...

There has been an increased awareness over the past couple of years (based on a number of publications) that lots and lots of Chinese herbals are contaminated with high levels of heavy metals and pesticides(i.e. toxic contamination). With regard to this formula, no one even knows what is in it, or how it works (uncertain ingredients, unknown mechanism of action), plus the few studies that have been carried out are inclusive.
 
I got my information from US Army surgeons who visited the company I work for, looking to use our product (used for soft tissue reconstruction). They said they hate quick clot because by the time they get their patients in the OR it has been long enough after the quick clot is used that it has healed into the wound, requiring them to cut out a lot of the soft tissue to remove it. You probably aren't used to seeing trauma victims a week+ after the application of quick clot as is the case with many of our casualties in far off lands...

Lewitt said:
Beaker -

Not sure where you got your info but hemostatics do not require surgical removal and do not destroy tissue. In my personal tests the hemostatic gauze can be removed in a single piece simply by pulling it out. Any wound requiring a hemostatic will require a surgeon to perform the vascular repair and to close the wound but the tissue loss will be determined by the wound tract, not the application of a hemostatic.

Bill Lewitt
Paramedic, RN
Lead Medical Instructor
Tactical Development Group
WayoftheGun.com
Click to expand...
 
beaker said:
I got my information from US Army surgeons who visited the company I work for, looking to use our product (used for soft tissue reconstruction). They said they hate quick clot because by the time they get their patients in the OR it has been long enough after the quick clot is used that it has healed into the wound, requiring them to cut out a lot of the soft tissue to remove it. You probably aren't used to seeing trauma victims a week+ after the application of quick clot as is the case with many of our casualties in far off lands...
Click to expand...

Then we have conflicting information. All of the Surgeons I have spoken with stationed in forward areas (mostly from 10th Mountain) have had no problems at all with either Celox or Quick Clot. In full disclosure I have never been a fan of QuickClot however I believe in providing complete and unbiased information and letting the end user make their own decisions. Regardless, I don't think many of us on this side of the pond will have to worry about wounds going untended for so long that the hemostatic would heal into tissue (new tissue begins to grow in 3-5 days post injury).

Lewitt
 
Combat gauze aside; not everything the military uses in their IFAK's is worth a damn. Stay away from the CAT, it's a serious POS! Apparently the extra $3 a pop for a SOF-T isn't worth a grunts life.

I hate QuickClot, it's like moon dust; any wind and it's blowing all over the place. (my .02)
 
hurley431 said:
Combat gauze aside; not everything the military uses in their IFAK's is worth a damn. Stay away from the CAT, it's a serious POS! Apparently the extra $3 a pop for a SOF-T isn't worth a grunts life.

I hate QuickClot, it's like moon dust; any wind and it's blowing all over the place. (my .02)
Click to expand...

I talk about that in the class, but QC hasnt made their powder in years.

What's your criticism of the CAT specifically?
 
Lewitt said:
What's your criticism of the CAT specifically?
Click to expand...

The only time we needed them in my last deployment they failed us miserably. The band is held on to the windlass by dabs of glue which pulled apart; and, when we put the third CAT on and finally slowed the bleeding the damn Velcro wouldn't secure. We lost one CAT because the plastic buckle broke. (Granted normal shooters aren't running around and jumping on their IFAK's in 135 pounds of gear.) The unsecured ends may not have "self adhered" but they sure picked up any debris they came across. So we had to have someone tend to them while we were moving. It was an upper, mid leg wound, so it was rough going anyway. Eventually we got the I.A. to our medic, who had purchased SOF-T's and Ranger ratchets with his own money.

In the end, I bought and had a SOF-T shipped to me and it sat in my IFAK after that. Again, it might not be applicable to daily life; but, the words "Combat Application" are IMNSHO a complete joke as far as the CAT goes. When an IFAK only holds one, it has to work. The CAT's didn't.
 
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Hurley,

If you're a vet with active service in a war zone, don't feel the need to edit your posts for language. As far as I'm concerned, you've earned the right to swear as much as you like [smile]

Before I used the Cat's I felt exactly the same as you. Please don't take this as me arguing with you; I totally believe the reports of your experience. About 5 years ago I bought a dozen or so CAT training Tqt's. I have used them for all of my classes since, 5 or 6 applications per student per class for atleast 1-2 classes per quarter (last month I taught 4 classes). During that time none of the tqt's have failed, broken, or even popped a stitch. Not an argument, just my experience.

I hope the soldier you mentioned did well. The technology involved in all of this gear will continue to evolve, but atleast we have it. The Rangers and Opertors in Mogadishu didn't even have tourniquets. Now we have dedicated IFAKS and evidence based research in Tactical Medicine.

Lewitt
 
Well, it's kind of nice to hear they work normally; again, the everyday guy isn't slamming their gear around so much. As they say "your mileage may vary." I'm just glad people are interested in this stuff and others with knowledge are around to teach them. We've made leaps and bounds in field care, I wouldn't want to know what these wars would have been like without these advancements.
 
Lewitt said:
Who is carrying hemostatics What do you carry?
Click to expand...

My wife had a real bad bleed, we ended up in the hospital, they couldn't stop the bleed, one of the EMT's that was going through the ER saw us, he went to his rig and got some celox, it stopped the bleed.

I could only find the quick clot afterwords, so I bought that, she has needed it again and I needed it once and it worked great.

I have been buying it through Cabela's now

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Hunting/Survival-Navigation/First-Aid|/pc/104791680/c/104774580/sc/109586880/QuikClot-Blood-Clotting-Agent/746289.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fhunting-survival-navigation-first-aid%2F_%2FN-1105336%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_109586880%3Fpcrid%3D7753694483%26WTz_l%3DSBC%253Bcat104791680%253Bcat104774580&WTz_l=SBC%3Bcat104791680%3Bcat104774580%3Bcat109586880
 
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