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CCW in MA

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A while ago I posted about why CCW is allowed in MA since the Statehouse is infested with libtards.

I was informed that our state had CCW permits a long time ago to regulate "certain people" from getting them (if i recall more than 100 plus years ago).

I am not old enough to get a CCW yet as I only have my FID card. To be honest I am 16, you can get your FID card when you are 15 if you did not know.

Why has there been no attempts to remove CCW in MA? I am worried about this. Is it because they have no platform to do it? Has it even been tried? Have outright gun bans even been tried in the Statehouse? I am worried about the future of our rights in MA. It seems everywhere is passing Pro gun legislation but here! Jeb Bush down in Flordia is signing pro gun bills so fast his hand probobly hurts and its like that in many places.

So where is the Second Amendment going in MA? Will it stay the way it is now? Or get worse? I doubt it will get better!
 
Doing a Search here, probably in Gun Laws Forum, should get you some info.

Basically:

- Every legislative session (each 2 years) the antis file bills to ban all handguns, limit sales, require insurance/gun, etc.

- GOAL is about all that stands in the way of the antis killing off gun ownership and CCW in MA. ALL gun owners should join, but most do not belong!

- In ~1975 there was a ballot question to ban all handguns in MA. We won, but today I would not take that bet.

- On rare occasion, we win some minor concessions in our heinous laws. But we can never expect any major wins/reversals of the worst laws we have on the books. Most MA gun owners vote for the lib-tards, preferring more welfare, SS, etc. than freedom.
 
Why has there been no attempts to remove CCW in MA?
There are attempts every session. Given that most people in MA are very much against gun ownership and would be appalled that people can carry concealed in MA, I'm very surprised we still have the ability to carry concealed.
 
I'd bet that a lot of the same chiefs who fight any attempt to standardize issue policies statewide as if it were the end of the world would fight eliminating CCW just as hard, and for the same reason. They really aren't that much anti-gun as they are little control freaks. Having concealed carry at their discretion gives them one more thing that they can do for people they like and withhold from everybody else. Besides, having the state take it away from people wouldn't be nearly as big a power rush as being able to do it just because they feel like it.

Ken
 
I think with most people that CCW in Mass is pretty much off their radar screens. I'd be willing to bet that more than 50% of the people don't even realize that people can and DO carry guns legally...and regularly.

That's one of the reasons you do not see "No guns allowed' signs anywhere.

Fortunately for us, very few crimes in this state (or anywhere else) are committed by legal gun owners/carriers, so people pretty much focus on illegal guns. I suspect that's why when the news reports on a gun crime, they hardly ever mention if the person involved is a licensed owner/carrier.

I'm almost afraid to try and 'improve' the situation because it would bring more attention to us and make people aware of the true situation here in the state.

If you look at our situation in an 'overall' way, we really don't have it too bad. Yeah we have the 'list' and we do have some pockets of towns that make things hard to get LTC's, but overall we don't have the really weird carry restrictions, eg: must notify when stopped, must be loaded/unloaded/locked/visible/covered in your car, or weird combinations of these. We have much freer carry than many of the places with far fewer restricted places where you can't carry.

We do have the AG and his Nazi like powers over mailorder/internet sales.

We do have the, 'it's completely legal to open carry but if you do we'll bust you for something else', weirdness.

Compared to many states, we are very well off.....(with apologies to those in the towns with tough CLEO's)
 
I was recently in OH for family reasons. Due to reciprocity, I can carry in OH. But if you are carrying in OH, you must carry unconcealed while in your car. And you can't carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol. And you can't carry here or there. It's nuts.
 
Pilgrim said:
I think with most people that CCW in Mass is pretty much off their radar screens. I'd be willing to bet that more than 50% of the people don't even realize that people can and DO carry guns legally...and regularly.

That's one of the reasons you do not see "No guns allowed' signs anywhere.

Fortunately for us, very few crimes in this state (or anywhere else) are committed by legal gun owners/carriers, so people pretty much focus on illegal guns. I suspect that's why when the news reports on a gun crime, they hardly ever mention if the person involved is a licensed owner/carrier.

I'm almost afraid to try and 'improve' the situation because it would bring more attention to us and make people aware of the true situation here in the state.

If you look at our situation in an 'overall' way, we really don't have it too bad.

That couldn't be the furthest from the truth.

Posession of anything here is illegal without a license... how is that -not-
bad? The vast majority of states in the US are at least "free by default"
in this manner.

Not to mention every LTC holder, at all times, is basically a centimeter away
from losing his or her license, if they violate one of the many dumb laws
here, or more likely, do something which causes the "unsuitable person"
guillotine to come down. We all live with that large knife over our necks,
at all times, in this state. How is that a good thing?

The only -good- qualities about MA at all is there are very few restrictions
legally speaking, of where you can and cannot carry a gun. But
by virtue of what happens on the ground here, thats practically almost
meaningless. (Compare to someplace like NH, where you might get
hassled for open carry, and nothing comes of it, but in MA you might
have an anti-gun PD tattling on you to try to get your license
pulled, and the issuer can -get away- with doing so.)

I guess it could be worse... it could be like IL- where there is no CCW
and there are anti handgun fiefdoms (cook county) etc, all over. That
state is a craphole gun wise. Or MD, where essentially you
have to be crippled to get a CCW, and still have to fight for
it. But MA is still in the bottom 10 states for gun
rights, easily. The only way things will ever improve drastically is if
the feds incorporate the 2nd admendment (eg, make it wholly binding on
the states) or something similarly drastic... and frankly im not holding my
breath on that one.

-Mike
 
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Even if the Feds mandated that the 2nd pre-empted any state/local law, MA would never abide by that. And most MA courts IMNSHO would agree with MA that MA could do whatever it pleases!

I have NO CONFIDENCE in the judicial system here. Having seen some of the cases here, having talked casually with a MA Supreme Ct. Justice, etc. I can assure you that their personal prejudices are totally anti-2A and they are very likely to vote that way on any possible opportunity!
 
Len is absolutely right - there was a case in Wellesley where a individual's license was revoked for exercising his right to remain silent when questioned about a crime. The court held that although the revocation of the license may not have been proper, the remedy is not the restoration of the license.
 
Yes, I can understand a corrupted court system, etc.

What I was driving at though, is via incorporation, the feds would then
have the power to use the carrot and stick on various states whos
laws violate the 2nd amendment. ( This is all a pipe dream
of course- I'm making this statement under the presumption that
if the 2nd was properly respected and panned out at the federal
level... ) Under such a scenario, the states could whine, but they
would have fed money sucked away from them if they didn't comply. Then
it would be in the realm of things like the state censoring a newspaper, or
conducting an illegal search, etc.... things which are widely protected against
state abuse because they are solidly linked back to the constitution.

Course.... I can see where you guys are coming from. LEOSA was passed,
even at a national level, and some of the a**h*** states are abusing it to
the nth degree.... I've heard of a few cases where other badge carriers
were detained in places like NY, so that the detaining PD could "check" their
creds or some other crap like that. Even though the guy isn't formally
arrested or charged with anything, they can still be a pain in the ass- enough
of a pain that would make him unlikely to carry his gun there again, which
I think is the intended effect of such abuses.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
Yes, I can understand a corrupted court system, etc. <SNIP>
Course.... I can see where you guys are coming from. LEOSA was passed,
even at a national level, and some of the a**h*** states are abusing it to
the nth degree.... I've heard of a few cases where other badge carriers
were detained in places like NY, so that the detaining PD could "check" their
creds or some other crap like that. Even though the guy isn't formally
arrested or charged with anything, they can still be a pain in the ass- enough
of a pain that would make him unlikely to carry his gun there again, which
I think is the intended effect of such abuses.

-Mike

There will always be issues, even with LEOSA. Alot of states just don't have a clue what its about, nor do the officers. Which is REALLY hard to take because they are ALL directly affected by it.

It still amazes me that people that carry a weapon every day have so little regard for it. [sad]

The other thing.. when I qualified/certified for my LEOSA, the major point from the instructor/range guy was that.... "if they don't know its there, what's the problem?" [thinking]

RJ
 
Yes, it is still active. I opened it, printed it and saved it as a pdf file.
 
OK, it's a messy cut and paste, but here is the text:

---------------------------------------------------

JUDICIAL STANDARDS FOR
FIREARMS LICENSE APPEALS
Persons aggrieved by a denial, revocation or suspension of a firearms
identification card (FID) or license to carry firearms (LTC), unless a hearing has
previously been held pursuant to Chapter 209A, are entitled to a court hearing in
the local district court. A review of the district court’s action is available in the
superior court, but there is no hearing and the scope of review is very limited.
The issues before the district court judge are different depending on
whether the appeal concerns an FID or an LTC.
FID APPEALS
Chapter 140, §129B (5) provides:
Any applicant or holder aggrieved by a denial,
revocation or suspension of a firearms
identification card, unless a hearing has
previously been held pursuant to Chapter
209A, may, within either 90 days after receipt
of such notice of such denial, revocation or
suspension or within 90 days after the
expiration of the time limit in which the
licensing authority is required to respond to the
applicant, file a petition to obtain judicial review
in the district court having jurisdiction in the city
or town wherein the applicant filed for or was
issued such card. A justice of such court, after
a hearing, may direct that a card be issued or
reinstated to the petitioner if the justice finds
that such petitioner is not prohibited by law
from possessing such card. (emphasis added)
The only issue before the district court judge is whether the applicant for
an FID Card was prohibited by law from possessing such card. There is a list in
§129B of conditions or restrictions that disqualify an applicant from receiving an
Page 2 of 9
FID Card, assuming the person resides or has a place of business in the city or
town.
The licensing authority may not prescribe any other condition for the
issuance of an FID Card. The chief or his or her designee may only revoke or
suspend an FID Card upon the occurrence of any event that would have
disqualified the holder from being issued such card or from having such card
renewed or for a violation of a restriction provided under c.140, §129B. A
revoked or suspended card may be reinstated only upon the termination of all
disqualifying conditions.
A person aggrieved by a decision (or the inaction) of a police chief is
entitled to an evidentiary hearing in the local district court.1 The hearing is not a
de novo proceeding.2 The hearing consists of a “re-examination of a proceeding,
already concluded, for the purpose of preventing a result which appears not to be
based upon the exercise of an unbiased and reasonable judgment.”3 Under this
standard, the district court is not permitted to substitute its opinion for that of the
licensing authority (chief of police).4
The nature of the proceedings at the district court’s “evidentiary hearing” is
different than a trial. 5 It is not necessary to observe all the formalities of a trial.
For example, “the hearsay rule should not be applied to evidence proffered by a
chief of police in support of the reasonableness of his denial. The test should be
one of relevance.”6
PRACTICE POINTERS
In an FID appeal case, there is little room for error. If the applicant or
aggrieved person was disqualified by one or more of the items listed in c.140,
§129B, the chief prevails. If not, the court will order the FID Card issued or
restored.
In practice, the aggrieved person will submit a copy of the chief’s letter
listing in which disqualification(s) applies. The petitioner must then convince the
court that the chief was wrong.
Page 3 of 9
If the court orders a license issued or restored, the chief has two choices.
Either comply or appeal (some opt to do nothing, leaving it to the aggrieved party
to seek enforcement action). Where a judge incorrectly awards a license to a
disqualified person, the chief’s appeal to the Superior Court, as discussed below,
should be successful. The chief should be careful to submit the entire record of
the District Court proceedings, including a transcript, to the Clerk of the Superior
Court as part of the appeal. If no transcript was made, and there was no tape
recording of the proceedings, the judge’s findings of Fact and Rulings of Law
should be submitted along with copies of the chief’s denial, suspension or
revocation notice and whatever documentation was submitted in District Court to
corroborate the basis of the chief’s contention of disqualification.
LTC APPEALS
The first sentence of the judicial appeal provision of c. 140, §131(f) (2d
paragraph) is identical to that in c.140, §129B. However, the second sentence
creates a major distinction as regards LTC review standards. It provides:
A justice of such (District) court, after a
hearing, may direct that a license be issued or
reinstated to the petitioner if such justice finds
that there was no reasonable ground for
denying, suspending or revoking such license
and that the petitioner is not prohibited by law
from possessing same.
As discussed above, the hearing in the District Court is not a trial de novo.
The chief may use hearsay evidence to justify his or her action.
The burden is on the applicant or individual whose license was suspended
or revoked to produce “substantial evidence” that establishes that the refusal to
issue the license or the suspension or revocation of a license was “arbitrary,
capricious or an abuse of discretion.”7 The weight and credibility accorded such
evidence is up to the trial judge in deciding whether the chief had any reasonable
ground for refusing to grant, or in suspending or revoking, a license.8 An
aggrieved person fails to merit his or her burden by simply demonstrating that the
Page 4 of 9
licensing authority weighed conflicting evidence and reached a result that the
District Court would not reach if it were acting de novo, i.e. with its own full trial.9
The nature of the review conducted by a district court allows the judge to
re-examine the facts found by the chief and to find additional facts as well. (This
is different than cases brought under Chapter 30A, the Administrative
Procedures Act, where the administrative agency is the sole finder of facts.10)
In many respects, the District Court review of a chief’s decision to deny,
suspend or revoke a firearms license encompasses some of the same criteria
involved in c.30A proceedings. Section 14(7) of c. 30A provides that the
reviewing court may affirm the decision, or remand the matter for further
proceedings; or the court may set aside or modify the decision; or compel any
action unlawfully withheld or unreasonably delayed, if it determines that the
substantial rights of any party may have been prejudiced for any of seven
enumerated reasons. Five (5) of those reasons are applicable to a District
Court’s review of a chief’s decision in a firearms license to carry case.11 These
are where the chief’s decision is:
· in violation of constitutional provisions;
· in excess of the chief’s statutory authority or jurisdiction;
· based upon an error of law;
· made upon unlawful procedure; or
· arbitrary or capricious, an abuse of discretion, or otherwise not in
accordance with law.12
When a person files a petition in the district court for review of a chief’s
decision in an LTC case, the court must review both the legal and factual basis
for the action taken by the licensing authority. Substantial deference should be
given to the judgment made by the licensing authority. However, the District
Court will not defer to the chief with regard to questions of law.13
Page 5 of 9
 
Part 2

SUPERIOR COURT REVIEW
A party aggrieved by the action of a District Court either affirming or
reversing the action taken by a police chief in a firearms licensing case does not
have a right to appeal to the superior court for a trial de novo under chapter 231,
§97. Rather, the review is limited to a civil action in the nature of certiorari under
c.249, §4. This was the conclusion reached in the 1993 Appeals Court case of
Godfrey v. Chief of Police of Wellesley.14 In such cases, the reviewing Superior
Court judge is limited to what is contained in the district court record. The
standard of review in certiorari cases is “to correct substantial errors of law
apparent on the record adversely affecting material rights.”15 In a proceeding
before the Superior Court, the scope of review is broad enough to include an
examination of whether there was a reasonable basis for the decision made by
the licensing authority to deny, suspend or revoke a license or by the judge of the
District Court to order the issuance or restoration of a license.16
The following are examples of court action involving a chief’s denial of an
LTC.
· Roy v. Dufort, 1999 Mass. Superior Ct., (No. 990667A) (Hillman,
J.) W.L. 1335160
A police officer asked the Superior Court to reverse the District Court’s
ruling that upheld the police chief’s denial of an application to review an LTC
under c.140, §131.
The court ruled that the new chief was not bound by any judgments about
a person’s suitability made by former chiefs.
The basis for the (new) chief’s refusal to renew the officer’s LTC was the
chief’s discovery that Roy’s criminal records indicated that he twice appeared
before a juvenile court on delinquency complaints, one for a false alarm and
another for larceny. In addition, while in the U.S. Army, he admitted to
possession and use of cocaine.
Roy signed the application for renewal under the penalties of perjury and
acknowledged that any false answers would be just cause for denial or
revocation of the license. He provided negative answers to questions about prior
Page 6 of 9
convictions, prior arrests, prior appearances in any court as a defendant, and
prior use of drugs and narcotics.
The Superior Court ruled that the District Court made no errors of law
when it held that based on the information known at the time of revocation, Chief
Dufort had reasonable grounds to revoke Roy’s LTC.
· DeLuca v. Chief of Police of Newton, 415 Mass. 155, 612 N.E.
2d 628 (1993)
The Supreme Judicial Court ruled that a police chief is entitled to consider
acts underlying pardoned offenses in determining whether an applicant is a
“suitable person” to receive an LTC.
· Stavis v. Carney, 2000 Mass. Superior Ct., (No. 99-349-A)
(Agnes, J.) W.L. 1170090
The Superior Court stayed this appeal for 30 days to allow the aggrieved
person to arrange for the complete District Court record (and transcript) to be
delivered to the Superior Court for review. The Court took the opportunity to
discuss the limited nature of Superior Court reviews. The complaint is treated as
one in the nature of certiorari under c.249, §4 and is limited to correcting errors of
law.
The District Court upheld former Chief Palmer’s revocation of an LTC.
The person was “involved”, but not charged, in connection with an incident at a
lounge where an individual was beaten, guns were shown, and a gun was
allegedly pointed at the victim’s head by one of the LTC holder’s companions.
The chief concluded that this rendered the license holder an unsuitable person to
carry firearms.
· Commonwealth v. Davis, 369 Mass. 886, 343 N.E. 2d 847
(1976).
An individual has no federal or state constitutional or statutory right to
possess or carry a firearm.
· Chief of Police of Shelburne v. Moyer, 16 Mass. App. Ct. 543,
453 N.E. 2d 461 (1983)
Page 7 of 9
Sealed records may be considered by a chief in determining fitness to
carry firearms. In the absence of a finding that no reasonable ground existed for
the chief of police to refuse a license on the basis that a person was not a
“suitable person”, the court erred in ordering the issuance of a license to a
defendant. To warrant such a finding, it must be shown that the chief’s refusal
was arbitrary, capricious or an abuse of discretion. The burden is on the
applicant to produce substantial evidence that (s)he is a proper person to hold a
license to carry firearms.
· McNutt v. Police Commissioner of Boston, 30 Mass. App. Ct.
632, 572 N.E. 2d 577 (1991)
The Commission had authority under §131 to require applicants to pass “a
test focusing on the safe handling and proficient firing of a firearm.”
· Godfrey v. Chief of Police of Wellesley, 35 Mass. App. Ct. 42,
616 N.E. 2d 485 (1993)
There was sufficient cause to revoke an LTC where the licensee refused
to cooperate with a police investigation of recent random shootings near the
licensee’s house.
· O’Malley v. Chief of Police of Stoughton, 35 Mass. App. Ct. 49,
617 N.E. 646 (1993)
District Court judge erred in overturning a decision by the local police chief
who had refused to issue a license for machine guns to a person who wished to
possess them for “personal enjoyment and possible future profit.”
· Dennison v. Whearty, 1998 Mass. Superior Ct. (No. 96-542)
(Connor, J.)
Local chief wrongly denied an applicant a firearms license solely on
account of his membership in the Hell’s Angels organization.
· Police Commissioner of Boston v. Robinson, 47 Mass. App. Ct.
767, 716 N.E. 2d 652 (1999)
Notice of license revocation sent to LTC holder by certified mail, but
returned unclaimed, did not satisfy the statutory notice requirement.
Page 8 of 9
· Rzeznik v. Chief of Police of Southampton, 374 Mass. 475, 373
N.E. 2d 1128 (1978)
An applicant for a firearms license who has been convicted of a felony is
barred from obtaining an LTC.
SUMMARY
A District Court review of the denial, suspension or revocation of an FID or
LTC is not a full trial. Where an FID Card is involved, the only issue is whether
the aggrieved party is disqualified under one of the listed statutory categories. In
LTC cases, the chief’s decision is entitled to great deference.
Reviews by the Superior Court are based on the record compiled at the
District Court. No trial is involved. The scope of review is very limited.
* * * * *
John M. Collins
Collins & Weinberg
47 Memorial Drive
Shrewsbury, MA 01545
(508) 842-1556
(508) 842-3703 – Fax
[email protected]
Page 9 of 9
1 Godfrey v. Chief of Police or Wellesley, 35 Mass. App. Ct. 42, 616 N.E. 2d 485 (1993).
2 Id.
3 Id. at 44, quoting Commissioners of Civil Service v. Municipal Court of the City of
Boston, 369 Mass. 84, 87, 337 N.E. 2d 682 (1975).
4 Godfrey, 35 Mass. App. Ct. at 45.
5 Chief of Police of Shelburne v. Moyer, 16 Mass. App. Ct. 543, 547, 453 N.E. 2d 461
(1983).
6 Id.
7 Chief of Police of Shelburne v. Moyer, supra, 16 Mass. App. Ct. at 546.
8 Id. at 547.
9 Compare Sullivan v. Municipal Court, 322 Mass. 566, 572-73, 78 N.E. 2d 618 (1948).
10 See Quintal v. Commissioner of Department of Employment and Training, 418 Mass.
855, 858, 641 N.E. 2d 1338 (1994).
11 See Stavis v. Carney, Mass. Superior Ct., July 31, 2000, W.L. 1170090.
12 See Newbury Junior College v. Town of Brookline, 19 Mass. App. Ct. 197, 202 n.7,
472 N.E. 1373 (1985) for a discussion of the distinction between judicial review of a
licensing decision under the “arbitrary and capricious” test as opposed to the “substantial
evidence” test.
13 See DeLuca v. Chief of Police of Newton, 415 Mass. 155, 612 N.E. 2d 628 (1993);
Dennison v. Whearty, 1998 Mass. Superior Ct. (No. 96-542) (Connor, J.).
14 Godfrey v. Chief of Police of Wellesley, 35 Mass. App. Ct. 42, 616 N.E. 2d 485 (1993).
15 Police Commissioner of Boston, v. Robinson, 47 Mass. App. Ct. 767, 770, 716 N.E. 2d
652 (1999); see also Mayor of Medford v. Judge of First District Court of Middlesex, 249
Mass. 465, 716 N.E. 652 (1924).
16 Stavis v. Carney, supra.
 
I see one omission and also the inclusion of a case rendered a nullity by statute.

First, Superior court is NOT the only avenue for appeal. There is the other option of a hearing before the Single Justice of the SJC, which is where I would take such an appeal.

Second, the MacNutt case, as recently discussed, is virtually a dead letter as regards the "power" to require range tests. The safety course statute and subsequent regulation prescribe what is required and range tests are NOT.

Chief Glidden acknowledges that, if challenged, the department imposing such a condition would likely lose and has warned those departments (Brookline specifically) that the practice could well attract legislative ire.
 
Scriv, and they blissfully ignore Ron's word!

I don't think that the MCOPA attorney is the sharpest knife in the drawer! I've seen/listened to him testify at the state house numerous times . . . I'm not impressed.
 
LenS said:
Scriv, and they blissfully ignore Ron's word!

Would it be improper, out of place, unprofessional or be a conflict of interest to invite him here and post from time to time regarding some of these issues (assuming he has the time or interest)?

I for one, would very much welcome his participation and opinion.

I don't think that the MCOPA attorney is the sharpest knife in the drawer! I've seen/listened to him testify at the state house numerous times . . . I'm not impressed.

But, the important part is someone is listening to him, be it the legislature, CLEOS, AG or courts.
 
LoginName,

Ron is a friend. I invited him here shortly after we "opened for business". There are numerous personal reasons (that I perceive on his end) which makes me think that he isn't interested in joining any more forums. He's also drastically cut back on his seminars.

Ericman, my crystal ball says:

- If Reilly becomes Gov and Coakley becomes AG, there is a very good chance that we'll see further screwing of ordinary citizens in PRM.

- If Healy and Hillman take the corner office, Coakley lost the AG race, PLUS more Repubs win House/Senate races (fat chance), we could be at "peace" for a while. If this were true we could even win back some things.

The likelihood of everything in scenario 2 above happening is about equal to my chances of winning the lottery . . . and I don't buy lottery tickets!
 
Ericman said:
Do you think CCW is here to stay in MA? Or will there be a ban in the next 5-10 years?

It won't be an outright ban I don't think. What I do think, however, is that they'll make it so damn difficult to buy guns, or increase the license fee, or add yet more restrictive laws to the point where the vast majority of us won't be able to continue in the sport, or continue to be able to protect ourselves and our famililes. Our numbers will slowly die on the vine and shrivel.
 
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