ccw a borrowed firearm

cstockwell

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I tried a search but could not find any info on this specific topic other than a borrowed shotgun from out of state. I have family in CT and have borrowed one of their handguns for my wife to try carrying for a little while to see if she would like that particular handgun (non-ma compliant and would need to find one that is for her if she likes it). It is a temporary ccw with a gun that is owned by one of my immediate family members from out of state. Is this legal?

Thanks,

Charlie
 

Rob Boudrie

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I have family in CT and have borrowed one of their handguns for my wife to try carrying for a little while
You are risking having this declared to be an interstate transfer without use of an FFL.
 

cstockwell

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You are risking having this declared to be an interstate transfer without use of an FFL.

Even if it is only in possession temporarily and not a long term thing? I have firearms I currently own that are sitting at my parents in CT we shoot regularly when I take the trip (Just over RI and MA border) and did have one of my uncles firearms from NH in my possession for a while when I was testing it at the range here. I never thought any of that as an issue but wondered if the ccw would make the difference??
 

richc

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Not an answer, but I do trust Rob Boudrie is correct.

It is really sad that I can't loan a handgun to a friend in another state to test out. I have numerous friends here on NES that I would gladly and confidently loan items from my collection. And some live in different states. But apparently that would be too dangerous for the public good.

Go figure...
 

cstockwell

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Wow...I am in utter disbelief how f'd up that is. I usually am pretty good at understanding how f'd up our stupid gun laws are but this seems beyond crazy.
 

Rob Boudrie

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wondered if the ccw would make the difference??

There is no legal difference with regards to transfer involved in borrowing a gun for target shooting, CCW, or to photograph it. The transfer is either lawful or not, "ccw" does not change anything in that regard.

Remember that a defensive use of a firearm is going to bring forth all sorts of investigative resources, and is the one situation where anything questionable (unlawfully borrowed from out of state owner, post ban > 10 round mag, etc.) is most likely to be discovered.
 
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Wow...I am in utter disbelief how f'd up that is. I usually am pretty good at understanding how f'd up our stupid gun laws are but this seems beyond crazy.

Imagine only being able to drive cars in your name that you purchased, period.

Imagine having to remove the battery, a tire, empty the gas tank, lock the doors and lock the required garage it's parked in before you could let it out of your sight.

Imagine not being able to drive them across state lines, or buy gas in another state without getting a permit from that state too.

Imagine states could say you can only buy 10 gallons of gas at a time or only drive cars that had tanks that held less than 10 gallons.

Imagine the DMV banning any type of car it wanted because it didn't like it, regardless of how safe and efficient it was.

Imagine not being able to buy a car with a turbo, a rear spoiler and convertible top because you can only own a car with 4 "evil features", but the engine and transmission count as the first two.

So is the utter ridiculousness of gun laws when put into perspective of other common tools in our lives... [banghead][banghead][banghead]
 
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jasons

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There is no legal difference with regards to transfer involved in borrowing a gun for target shooting, CCW, or to photograph it. The transfer is either lawful or not, "ccw" does not change anything in that regard.

As I recall there is an exception in the fed law that allows someone to lend a firearm across state lines for "temporary sporting purposes." In this case I don't think you'd be able to argue that concealed carry is a "sporting purpose."


Found the cite:

18 USC 922(a) it shall be unlawful --
...
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer,
sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person
(other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is
a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that
this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation,
or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm
to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a
person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the
laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;
 
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As I recall there is an exception in the fed law that allows someone to lend a firearm across state lines for "temporary sporting purposes." In this case I don't think you'd be able to argue that concealed carry is a "sporting purpose."

You are absolutely correct. However, keep in mind § 922(a)(3), which does not allow you to bring the firearm into your state of residence. You can borrow it in another state, or have the owner transport it into your state for you, but you cannot bring it in yourself. The OP may have also broken this law, as well as 922(a)(5). Putting both (3) & (5) together make a reasonable case that the temporary sporting exception is intended mostly to allow you to rent firearms at a range and/or allow different state residents to go hunting/shooting together and share guns. ATF has never much clarified the issue.
 
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cstockwell

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Actually the firearm was legally brought into MA by the licensed CT owner (my mother) for target practice at my range when we shot there. She has left it at my residence for loan for our temporary personal target practice and testing for my wife. It was never a question of legally bringing the firearm into the state but just of the ability for her to carry it with her ccw permit for a short time as a loaner.
 
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cstockwell said:
Actually the firearm was legally brought into MA by the licensed CT owner (my mother)

That's fine then, as long as she has a non-resident MA LTC or somebody with a MA license accompanied her on the trip over the border.

It was never a question of legally bringing the firearm into the state but just of the ability for her to carry it with her ccw permit for a short time as a loaner.

Ok, good, it sounds like you're well within the law then. But if she was carrying it and had to use it, you'd definitely have an uphill battle explaining why she was carrying a gun that belonged to a resident of another state.
 

cstockwell

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That's fine then, as long as she has a non-resident MA LTC or somebody with a MA license accompanied her on the trip over the border.



Ok, good, it sounds like you're well within the law then. But if she was carrying it and had to use it, you'd definitely have an uphill battle explaining why she was carrying a gun that belonged to a resident of another state.

That is what I was afraid of. Thanks for all the help guys!!
 

GSG

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Remember that a defensive use of a firearm is going to bring forth all sorts of investigative resources, and is the one situation where anything questionable (unlawfully borrowed from out of state owner, post ban > 10 round mag, etc.) is most likely to be discovered.

But if she was carrying it and had to use it, you'd definitely have an uphill battle explaining why she was carrying a gun that belonged to a resident of another state.

This, keeping in mind that even if your activity is 100% lawful, it may result in a "suitability" yank of your LTC by a local chief in MA, or ATF not interviewing anyone and filing charges for legal activity like they did with Michael Lara.
 
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Hi folks,
I have a situation\question,

My brother (technically my 1/2 brother, different last name not that it should make a difference) has let me borrow a pistol he has purchased. I'm considering purchasing it from him, if I decide to we'll go thru a local dealer and do it properly. We are both licensed to concealed carry, we're both MA residents and live a few towns away.
The reason I'm interested in purchasing this pistol from him is because I'm considering it for concealed carry.

My question is:
Is it OK for me carry this pistol concealed in the meantime? AND,
What if during this small time frame when I was carrying it, the unthinkable should happen and I were to use it?

I'm taking a big shot in the dark and ASSUMING that things would be OK and the MA LAW would be more concerned with how many days in was in my possession (what ever that limit is) before the (proposed) incident in question actually took place. God Forbid if they don't collect their tax on another item in time...

Hope someone can clarify for me.

Thanks guys.
 

GSG

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Is it OK for me carry this pistol concealed in the meantime?

Perfectly legal.

What if during this small time frame when I was carrying it, the unthinkable should happen and I were to use it?

Same as any other gun. If the cops took it for whatever reason (like if you were arrested) and it had to be picked up from the PD later he might have to pick it up himself, and if the FSI didn't show the gun under his name they might ask him for a copy of the FA-10 or other proof of ownership before releasing it.

I'm taking a big shot in the dark and ASSUMING that things would be OK and the MA LAW would be more concerned with how many days in was in my possession (what ever that limit is) before the (proposed) incident in question actually took place.

There's no time limit under Mass. law for how long you can possess a gun before buying it. In theory he could lend it to you for 20 years, as long as you're both licensed and there's no transfer of ownership you're good to go under Mass. law.
 
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...I'm considering purchasing it from him, if I decide to we'll go thru a local dealer and do it properly. We are both licensed to concealed carry, we're both MA residents...

If you are both MA residents, and both licensed appropriately, a dealer is unnecessary.

Is it OK for me carry this pistol concealed in the meantime?

Yes, 100% legal.

...MA LAW would be more concerned with how many days in was in my possession (what ever that limit is)

No such law/limit exists.



ETA: Welcome to the forum!
 
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So I can't carry my friend's gun in NH (where I have an nonresident concealed carry permit) into MA (where I have a resident concealed carry permit)?
 

GSG

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If you are both MA residents, and both licensed appropriately, a dealer is unnecessary.

Just so that the crowd is clear, in order to sell a gun without going through a dealer you must fill out an FA-10.

So I can't carry my friend's gun in NH (where I have an nonresident concealed carry permit) into MA (where I have a resident concealed carry permit)?

Federal law allows temporary interstate loans between individuals for "sporting purposes." However, federal law also makes it illegal for you to transport someone else's guns across state lines with or without LTC's.
 
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