CCI #400 SR Question

[notalib]

I am getting flat primers in my .223 loads. I gave up on RL15 as at .5 grain under min I was still getting flat primers. I switched to Varget and went to the range today..
flat primers.... Not cratered.. just flat

Bullet - Hornady 2267B (With canalure) 55 Gr FMJ No crimp (Fed rounds one at a time)
23.0 Gr Varget (Used an RCBS scale, setup with RCBS check weights)
CCI #400 SR primers
Cart trim len 1.755
COL 2.240 (Plus or minus about.002)
Rifle Savage FV112 w/26" barrel(Absolutly stock.. with about 200 rounds down the tube)
Brass LC

Crony Results from 5 rounds (CED M2)
Avg 2,666
SD 12.1

no wind
temp about 80

Hornady load book says using this bullet/powder
min load of 22.8 Gr and 2800 FPS
max load of 26.4 GR and 3200 FPS
Internal balistic software predicts about 2883 FPS

I'll see if I cant get some pictures later on..

Any ideas of whats going on?? Flat primers and very low speed

 

[EddieCoyle]

You need to show some pictures because there's flat and then there's FLAT.

How's the headspace on the rifle? If it's long (or the shoulders on your rounds are sized too far back) them you'll get flat primers that have nothing to do with over-pressure.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Flat is one thing. Heck, they are supposed to be "flat" when you seat them in the primer pocket.

It's really more about how tightly the rounded edges of the primers FILL the primer pockets after firing. And, whether you are getting any "coining" of the bolt face into the primer (the funny cratering shapes that you sometimes get) or coining on the back end of the brass.

Here's a picture showing a seated fresh primer, and some flattening indicating pretty flat primers:

Here's another image, showing increasing pressure, left to right. The one on the very right is pretty well maxed out:

 

[Gadsden]

Great pics Duke, thanks. My 175gr 7.62x51 loads were looking like the last two so I backed off a bit. (was using 42.5gr IMR4064, 175gr Sierra BTHP, LC NATO brass). When I moved to the prvi-prizan bullets, the primers got even worse, so I cut those back to 41gr.

 

[Jasper]

eh, get harder primers. (Magnum or Benchrest)

if you guys knew what we loaded up for long range rifle ammo, you'd cry about book maximums.

books are written for test chambers and piezo sensors. are they a good reference point? sure, i use em all the time for measurement information, but ESPECIALLY with rifle, EVERY chamber is different. hell even round count on a barrel is going to affect performance (higher the round count, average velocity goes down and accuracy suffers). 2666 is almost pathetic-slow for even a decent 55gr bullet.

(FWIW, i chrono'd some .223 today. 75gr HPBT's are going ~ 2790-2810, 80gr HPBT's are going ~2780-2800fps). my 55gr practice ammo is cruising along at just a touch over 3000fps.

*also, varget isnt exactly ideal for 55's. try a faster ball powder, like TAC or 748. 26.5gr of 748 under a 55gr FMJ was brutally accurate in my rifles.

 

[Cabin Fever]

(FWIW, i chrono'd some .223 today. 75gr HPBT's are going ~ 2790-2810, 80gr HPBT's are going ~2780-2800fps). my 55gr practice ammo is cruising along at just a touch over 3000fps.

On the road to being the Elmer Keith of .223?

 

[Jasper]

On the road to being the Elmer Keith of .223?

nope. just accepted the fact that some things work, and some things dont.

Reloader 15 and Varget are a bit slow for the lighter bullets, which is why i recommended W748 or TAC (or similiar)

as far as primers, its an AR15. chambering a round is borderline violent, and it uses a free floating firing pin. soft primers arent a great choice. personally, i use Wolf SR Magnum's for short range loads (out to 300yds) and Remington 7 1/2's (Benchrest) for long range (600-1000yds)

 

[EddieCoyle]

as far as primers, its an AR15. chambering a round is borderline violent, and it uses a free floating firing pin. soft primers arent a great choice. personally, i use Wolf SR Magnum's for short range loads (out to 300yds) and Remington 7 1/2's (Benchrest) for long range (600-1000yds)

I use the Wolf SR Magnums for all of my AR and MG loads.

 

[notalib]

eh, get harder primers. (Magnum or Benchrest)

if you guys knew what we loaded up for long range rifle ammo, you'd cry about book maximums.

books are written for test chambers and piezo sensors. are they a good reference point? sure, i use em all the time for measurement information, but ESPECIALLY with rifle, EVERY chamber is different. hell even round count on a barrel is going to affect performance (higher the round count, average velocity goes down and accuracy suffers). 2666 is almost pathetic-slow for even a decent 55gr bullet.

(FWIW, i chrono'd some .223 today. 75gr HPBT's are going ~ 2790-2810, 80gr HPBT's are going ~2780-2800fps). my 55gr practice ammo is cruising along at just a touch over 3000fps.

*also, varget isnt exactly ideal for 55's. try a faster ball powder, like TAC or 748. 26.5gr of 748 under a 55gr FMJ was brutally accurate in my rifles.

Thanks all of you for responding...
The 2600 FPS was very slow and suprised me. And getting a flat primer on top of that was flabergasting... EC... not FLAT just flat
I have some TAC and will try that. I also have some Winchester primers I might try.

 

[1903Collector]

I use CCI #41s for my 5.56 and 6.8 AR loads mainly because I was worried about slam fires and bought a crap load of them, but after some research I discovered that wasn't really a concern.

 

[Jasper]

Temperate loads on this batch! Older winchester primers are awesome.....the newer ones tend to pierce easily on hot rodded loads. The cci's aren't the issue I think....I think its more a combo of powder/bullet compatibility.

 

[55_grain]

I use 26.3g of Varget under HDY 55 FMJ's in LC brass. Treat this data with the same caution as any other internet load

CCI400 primers: somewhat flattened after shooting
Rem 7 1/2 primers: zero flattening with the same load.

55_grain

 

[notalib]

I use 26.3g of Varget under HDY 55 FMJ's in LC brass. Treat this data with the same caution as any other internet load

CCI400 primers: somewhat flattened after shooting
Rem 7 1/2 primers: zero flattening with the same load.

55_grain

this kinda strenghtens my feeling of the CCI primer.. I only used 23.0 grains of Varget and I got flattening.. I am going to try TAC next and see if that makes a diff.. A min load to start with. The only load for a 55Gr they have out there is for a sierra.. I think I should be safe at min anyway.
Tnxs again for all the responses

 

[notalib]

Hmmmm Maybe I have an answer.... I bought an Hornady Overall length gauge. Seems COL should be 2.185 (hornady 2267B bullets and Savage 112) at max... My seating depth on these has been 2.240 (Hornady manual suggests 2.20) . That may explain some high pressure issues.. I have today off.. I am going to make up a batch and size it to 2.155 (edited.. had wrong length in original post) and see what happens.

 

[55_grain]

Hmmmm Maybe I have an answer.... I bought an Hornady Overall length gauge. Seems COL should be 2.185 (hornady 2267B bullets and Savage 112) at max... My seating depth on these has been 2.240 (Hornady manual suggests 2.20) . That may explain some high pressure issues.. I have today off.. I am going to make up a batch and size it to 2.155 (edited.. had wrong length in original post) and see what happens.

Do you have that backwards? 2.23REM OAL should be 2.260" max. My 55FMJ's are 2.250". If you were making them at 2.24 (OK) and you're changing them to 2.155, you should expect the pressure to go up further.

If you get some particularly flat primers, take some pics.

55_grain

 

[notalib]

Do you have that backwards? 2.23REM OAL should be 2.260" max. My 55FMJ's are 2.250". If you were making them at 2.24 (OK) and you're changing them to 2.155, you should expect the pressure to go up further.

If you get some particularly flat primers, take some pics.

55_grain

What I see happening at COL of 2.24 is that the bullet gets pushed into the cartridge and rests on the lands. WHen I close the bolt my COL should go down to about 2.185 with the bullet soldly seated in the lands and grooves.. this is not healthy.

 

[55_grain]

What I see happening at COL of 2.24 is that the bullet gets pushed into the cartridge and rests on the lands. WHen I close the bolt my COL should go down to about 2.185 with the bullet soldly seated in the lands and grooves.. this is not healthy.

For real? 2.185" is too short. My notes say Hodgdon says 2.20" MIN OAL.
Take a case and cut a slit in the neck. Resize it again and seat a projectile (no primer/powder). Load that in and see how far the bullet sits back without forcing it into the rifling.

 

[notalib]

Thats what the hornady OAL guage does. I cant get to reloading any today (honey do list).. but tonight I'll measure again and again and again.. I just got the gauge and although it does not look complicated, I could be misreading it

 

[bpm990d]

Do you mean the old stony point tool, that has caliber specific inserts? That tool is measuring to the major diameter of the bullet, not the OAL. Much more precise method for seating depths since the ogive's can vary between bullets.

B

 

[DukeInFlorida]

I use my regular calipers for measuring over all length.

Do you have regular calipers? What length do those say????

Can you chamber FACTORY AMMO of a similar bullet style? What is the over all length of factory ammo?

Hmmmm Maybe I have an answer.... I bought an Hornady Overall length gauge. Seems COL should be 2.185 (hornady 2267B bullets and Savage 112) at max... My seating depth on these has been 2.240 (Hornady manual suggests 2.20) . That may explain some high pressure issues.. I have today off.. I am going to make up a batch and size it to 2.155 (edited.. had wrong length in original post) and see what happens.