Caution about buying Magazines at Mass Gun Show

[drgrant]

How do gun shows enter the picture? Are the rules/regs different? Am asking because I may want to go to one in the next year to sell some items that might get decimated by going to a dealer for an outright sale.

Depends on the laws of the state it occurs in and the rules the show promoter
has in place.

-Mike

 

[Ray-500]

Depends on the laws of the state it occurs in and the rules the show promoter
has in place.

-Mike

How does BATF rules/regs enter the picture?

 

[GSG]

No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994.[\QUOTE]

Hmmmm.... does this mean lawfully possessed in Massachusetts or lawfully possessed in the US?

Or what does it mean?

Thanks,

Rich

Anywhere. If somebody in Tasmania had them and gave them to you, they're OK as long as they were made before 1994.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but are you sure the mags didn't have to be imported here pre-ban? The reason I ask is a post made by drgrant awhile back, which I'll quote.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4944

Reason I ask is that this stuff is always muddy. A perfect example
is the HK USP .45 mag controversy. There are a group of people who
claim that there are prebans, because at least one individual had imported
prebans which were manufactured by HK germany, before the ban took
effect, even though the gun didn't exist here at that time. Of course
HK-USA swears up and down they're not prebans, but they don't know about
this one vendors end around on their supply chain. (And he obstensibly got
BATF approval to import the things, too... if they were illegal, he would have
been denied an import permit.).

 

[drgrant]

How does BATF rules/regs enter the picture?

If you're a private seller, you're pretty much stuck selling guns to residents of your state of residence, assuming your state laws allow for such
transfers. (This is of course, assuming that you're selling stuff at a gun show in your state of residents... things are liable to get thorny if you're at a gun show in another state... )

This means, for one example, that if you have a gun for sale, you can't sell it to a resident from another state, without putting an FF in the middle of you and the buyer.

FWIW, the feds don't care about mags, accessories, and other junk, so that
stuff isn't an issue... may be covered under state law, if applicable.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but are you sure the mags didn't have to be imported here pre-ban? The reason I ask is a post made by drgrant awhile back, which I'll quote.

FWIW- Those permits may have been approved based on a claim by the importer of when the mags were made, eg, as opposed to having to obtain approval before the ban. It's unclear to me whether or not BATFE allowed imports of pre-ban manufacture magazines after the 94 cutoff. I would like to think the answer to that is "yes" given the seemingly endless stream of military surplus AK, AR, and taiwanese beretta 92 mags that was coming into the US even before the ban expired. (Well, either that or the importers were dodging the permit requirements, which is possible, but doubtful given the possible penalties. )

ETA: Another fun issue which may complicate this is that BATFE has been, in the past, kind of "wonky" about whether or not an import permit was required for certain gun accessories. IIRC, the paper rule was that the accessories were of a certain nature to require a permit, or above a certain declared value, and that BATFE changed their mind about some of these sub-issues WRT importation. (And they still do this crap today, for example, the "barrel ban" on demilled AK parts kits, etc... all done without passing a real law. )

-Mike

 

[GSG]

FWIW- Those permits may have been approved based on a claim by the importer of when the mags were made, eg, as opposed to having to obtain approval before the ban. It's unclear to me whether or not BATFE allowed imports of pre-ban manufacture magazines after the 94 cutoff. I would like to think the answer to that is "yes" given the seemingly endless stream of military surplus AK, AR, and taiwanese beretta 92 mags that was coming into the US even before the ban expired. (Well, either that or the importers were dodging the permit requirements, which is possible, but doubtful given the possible penalties. )

ETA: Another fun issue which may complicate this is that BATFE has been, in the past, kind of "wonky" about whether or not an import permit was required for certain gun accessories. IIRC, the paper rule was that the accessories were of a certain nature to require a permit, or above a certain declared value, and that BATFE changed their mind about some of these sub-issues WRT importation. (And they still do this crap today, for example, the "barrel ban" on demilled AK parts kits, etc... all done without passing a real law. )

-Mike

So I'm guessing it's entirely possible that even the ATF doesn't know if/when things were legally imported?

 

[drgrant]

So I'm guessing it's entirely possible that even the ATF doesn't know if/when things were legally imported?

Well, I'm sure they know about the things they approved permits for, but beyond that, is anyone's guess.


Here's an interesting tidbit of peripheral info gleaned from a "notice of rulemaking" from the ATF from a long time ago...

http://www.ttb.gov/rpd/tdatf396.htm

ATF received 129 comments in response to Notice No. 807. Fifty-two

commenters, representing 40 percent of the total comments received,

objected to ATF's interpretation of the law as restricting the

importation of large capacity ammunition feeding devices after the date

of enactment regardless of the date of manufacture of such devices.

They also contended that the marking requirements prescribed in the

regulations pursuant to T.D. ATF-363 (Sec. 178.92(c)) only apply to

large capacity ammunition feeding devices manufactured after the

effective date of the statute. Similar objections and arguments were

raised in litigation challenging ATF's interpretation of the law.

After analyzing the comments received and in light of the above-

mentioned litigation, ATF re-examined the Act and determined that

feeding devices with a capacity of more than 10 rounds manufactured on

or before September 13, 1994, are not subject to the restrictions of

the law. Consequently, on July 29, 1996, ATF published in the Federal

Register another temporary rule reflecting this position (T.D. ATF-383,

61 FR 39320). The temporary rule also provided guidance to importers on

acceptable evidence that magazines sought to be imported were

manufactured on or before September 13, 1994.

So, from the sounds of this, it sounds as though initially it was one way but then ATF's hand was forced to allow any magazine of preban manufacture to be imported, even past the cutoff, as long as said magazine was made before the cutoff.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Here's more fun from the Fed Register about how they "determined" what a pre-9/13/94 mag was... (at least for the purposes of importation)

The difficulty ATF faces in enforcing the marking requirements of the statute is to identify those magazines manufactured after September 13, 1994, that are subject to the requirements. Although it is possible in some cases to determine the date of manufacture based on physical characteristics of particular magazines, in many cases pre-enactment
magazines are physically identical to post-enactment magazines. It is impractical for the Government to conduct investigations abroad to determine the date of manufacture of these foreign magazines. After analyzing the comments received and in light of the above-mentioned litigation, ATF has re-examined the Act and determined that feeding devices with a capacity of more than 10 rounds manufactured on or before September 13, 1994, are not subject to the restrictions of the law. However, in order to facilitate the importation of such devices, the regulations will require importers to provide certain evidence with their import applications. The applications must state that the devices are being imported for sale to government agencies or qualified law enforcement officers or present reasonable evidence that the devices were manufactured on or before September 13, 1994. Examples of acceptable evidence are listed in the regulations and include (1) permanent markings on the magazines or physical characteristics indicating the date of manufacture; and (2) certifications from the importer concerning the date of manufacture of the magazines, supported by reasonable documentary evidence, such as commercial records. Any one of these examples, which are not meant to be exhaustive, may be sufficient to establish the time of manufacture. Recognizing the legitimate business needs of the firearms industry in prompt action by ATF on import applications, the regulations will require the Director to act expeditiously on applications to import ammunition feeding
devices.

#2 seems pretty subjective. It sounds as though as long as the importer conducted a dog and pony show with the ATF about the origin of the mags, that a permit would be approved. EG, maybe the importer had some sort of document they signed attesting to the manufacturing date of the mags, etc. There's also room here for the importer to say they're importing the mags for LE use and then pull the "Let's not actually do this and say we did" trick- EG, since outside the context of importation, magazines aren't controlled items, once the mags got into the US, any kind of enforcement action involving them would be futile. Of course, I doubt the people who actually did the importing subjected themselves to that risk, but these importers may have passed on mags to other dealers/distribution channels after they got into the US.

-Mike

 

[Ray-500]

If you're a private seller, you're pretty much stuck selling guns to residents of your state of residence, assuming your state laws allow for such
transfers. (This is of course, assuming that you're selling stuff at a gun show in your state of residents... things are liable to get thorny if you're at a gun show in another state... )

This means, for one example, that if you have a gun for sale, you can't sell it to a resident from another state, without putting an FF in the middle of you and the buyer.

FWIW, the feds don't care about mags, accessories, and other junk, so that
stuff isn't an issue... may be covered under state law, if applicable.

-Mike

Thank you. Then, if that's the case, what is the "foaming at the mouth" of all the lefties about Gun Shows? Have never bought a firearm at one...so am not sure of all the negative hype surrounding "shows". If I went to a show in MA, would I be able to purchase some firearm from a participant, even though I live in RI?

 

[Ray-500]

Here's more fun from the Fed Register about how they "determined" what a pre-9/13/94 mag was... (at least for the purposes of importation)



#2 seems pretty subjective. It sounds as though as long as the importer conducted a dog and pony show with the ATF about the origin of the mags, that a permit would be approved. EG, maybe the importer had some sort of document they signed attesting to the manufacturing date of the mags, etc. There's also room here for the importer to say they're importing the mags for LE use and then pull the "Let's not actually do this and say we did" trick- EG, since outside the context of importation, magazines aren't controlled items, once the mags got into the US, any kind of enforcement action involving them would be futile. Of course, I doubt the people who actually did the importing subjected themselves to that risk, but these importers may have passed on mags to other dealers/distribution channels after they got into the US.

-Mike

Grin, seems like my 30-rd mags and 50-rd drum for theThompson should be good to go.

 

[GSG]

Mike, thanks for sharing that, it's very interesting.

Thank you. Then, if that's the case, what is the "foaming at the mouth" of all the lefties about Gun Shows? Have never bought a firearm at one...so am not sure of all the negative hype surrounding "shows". If I went to a show in MA, would I be able to purchase some firearm from a participant, even though I live in RI?

No, not a personal transfer or even an FFL transfer (in Mass.). Only licensed Mass. residents can purchase firearms here, so your only option would be to purchase a firearm and have it shipped to your local FFL.

I'm sorry, but this state sucks.

 

[graftyman]

No, not a personal transfer or even an FFL transfer (in Mass.). Only licensed Mass. residents can purchase firearms here, so your only option would be to purchase a firearm and have it shipped to your local FFL.

I've seen many times at shows that if there is a dealer that is licensed in the state you live in, do the transfer. For a fee of course. So, if being from R.I. you find a gun from a mass dealer you like and you can find a R.I. dealer at the show they can in theory do the sale. I don't know the details as I never really paid that much attention to others.

I could be wrong here, as I really don't know. Just have overheard numerous times at shows people clamoring to find a different state FFL to make a purchase.

 

[Len-2A Training]

graftyman, although I'm sure that some dealers have done this, if so, it violated Fed Law. Feds only allow the FFL to actually make a transfer at a gun show in the same state that they are licensed in.

However, the RI dealer could sell it to him, and just make him pick it up at the RI shop. That would be all nice and legal.

 

[PistolPete]

There are literally millions of AR mags out there in the world so finding pre-ban is not a big deal. If it's not date stamped or marked LE Only then it's preban.

 

[GLOCK.Perfection]

There are literally millions of AR mags out there in the world so finding pre-ban is not a big deal. If it's not date stamped or marked LE Only then it's preban.

so are new c product mags preban? They are unmarked, but c products wasnt even around before the ban....

 

[01SVTvert]

Seems to be plenty of POST ban mags now unmarked. The amnufacturers that popped up post ban seem to be doing this (such as C Products) so I am staying safe and using a link posted here somewhere I am only buying dated / undated from mfrs that existed before the ban. Figure that is my due dilligence.

 

[djs764]

so are new c product mags preban? They are unmarked, but c products wasnt even around before the ban....

But how would they know if the shell of the mag was post ban and the spring, plate and fowllers weren't replaced with a c products rebuild kit ?

I called 2 different local FFL's the other day and got the same answer from both. " If the mags don't have LE/Millitary stamped on them and there's no date stamped then there's no way to prove how old the mags are. Now if they're the new P-mags it's obvious they are post ban."

When I called C-Products she said the only state they couldn't sell to were NY, NJ, MD, and CA. I think as long as you're not bragging you have post ban mags, most LEO have better things to do than hours of paper work trying to research if your mags are pre or post ban. Besides, how can you prove it if there's no dates stamped on the outter shell of the mag.

Just my .02...adjusted for inflation...now worthless

 

[PWM]

Because the magazine police will show up at your range/house (you know, the same guys that arrest thousands of people each year for collapsable stocks?). They are going to go CSI on your ass!

The REALITY is, no one cares until someone gets shot with something. THEN they start pulling out the magazine issues, AW Ban issues, and that person has all kinds of problems.

So its rather simple, don't concern yourself with being a lawyer when you buy magazines, ammo, etc... If you have a HIGH CAPACITY license, and someone tells you its a pre-ban magazine... what are you going to do? F***ing carbon date it? =)

But how would they know if the shell of the mag was post ban and the spring, plate and fowllers weren't replaced with a c products rebuild kit ?

I called 2 different local FFL's the other day and got the same answer from both. " If the mags don't have LE/Millitary stamped on them and there's no date stamped then there's no way to prove how old the mags are. Now if they're the new P-mags it's obvious they are post ban."

When I called C-Products she said the only state they couldn't sell to were NY, NJ, MD, and CA. I think as long as you're not bragging you have post ban mags, most LEO have better things to do than hours of paper work trying to research if your mags are pre or post ban. Besides, how can you prove it if there's no dates stamped on the outter shell of the mag.

Just my .02...adjusted for inflation...now worthless

 

[GLOCK.Perfection]

I called 2 different local FFL's the other day and got the same answer from both. " If the mags don't have LE/Millitary stamped on them and there's no date stamped then there's no way to prove how old the mags are. Now if they're the new P-mags it's obvious they are post ban."

local ffl's, the leading source for legal advice.

If your comfortable saying c product mags are defensible as potentially rebuilds, then go for it. Either way, don't buy them for $40 from your local gun shop.

 

[Bob P]

Dude! Go for it! What's the worst thing that can happen?



Oh yeah, 10 years in jail.

 

[drgrant]

So its rather simple, don't concern yourself with being a lawyer when you buy magazines, ammo, etc... If you have a HIGH CAPACITY license, and someone tells you its a pre-ban magazine... what are you going to do? F***ing carbon date it? =)

While I agree the probability of ever getting hit with a mag charge is slim to none, nobody wants to be "that guy". Of course, the level of caution one chooses in regards to preban mags, etc, is a highly subjective thing, and we can on it forever, if we wanted to. I tell people to look at the law and make up their own minds. Everyone has a different kind of "risk vs unnecessary obeisance" interpretation, when it comes to stuff like this.

One thing that doesn't help is that in MA the standard of evidence hasn't really ever been defined, as there is no case law. At least in the case of the feds, the feds clearly delineated in USC that anything without LE markings was "to be taken at face value" to be preban, but MA did not adopt that part of USC when it copied the "definitions" of the Fed AWB, because that "standard of prosecution" was not defined in the main body of the AWB. This leaves a bunch of balls up in the air- for example, nobody really knows whether or not things like BATFE tech branch determinations would mean crap in an MA court or not. (EG, for example, the stock pinning thread- an MA court might decide that a single fixed screw was "enough" even though BATFE said otherwise... )

The bottom line is the laws in this state suck, and it's anyone's guess as to how some of them will be interpreted. Even "gun law czars" like Ron Glidden have been proven to be wrong on occasion.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

Even "gun law czars" like Ron Glidden have been proven to be wrong on occasion.

And in a few cases (of which I am aware) a change in "management" of the state/EOPS led to an "about face" on interpretation of what the law meant! Net result is that people currently can get jammed up legally for doing what they were told was legal a few years ago and since determined by recent "management" as illegal . . . with NO WARNING to any affected parties.

 

[jdubois]

At least in the case of the feds, the feds clearly delineated in USC that anything without LE markings was "to be taken at face value" to be preban, but MA did not adopt that part of USC when it copied the "definitions" of the Fed AWB

Yup, without the marking requirement from the federal ban, a magazine ban with pre-ban exemption is retarded and completely impossible to enforce. Welcome to MA

In fact, MA is screwed either way. If they had a stipulation that all post-ban mags must be marked, they'd still be in the same boat because out of state unmarked mags would still get imported and be 'questionable'.

The only thing they could do is to go with a registration system like the NFA has and offer a limited registration period. The mags would have to be physically displayed to some authority since there are no serials, and there would have to be some sort of per mag registration fee to attempt to slow the 'registration period surge' of mag importation.

Or they could just drop the entire rediculous affair all together...

 

[Cabin Fever]

The only thing they could do is to go with a registration system like the NFA has and offer a limited registration period. The mags would have to be physically displayed to some authority since there are no serials, and there would have to be some sort of per mag registration fee to attempt to slow the 'registration period surge' of mag importation.

Don't give them any ideas!

 

[GL523]

I purchased a used Bushmaster AR-15 from a local dealer last month. It did not have any magazines but they told me they have some pre ban 30 round mags. So I purchased 2 of them because they said the were pre ban. The only marking I found on each of them says: "X090" on the side and close to the bottom of the magazine. Is this the date stamp?

 

[01SVTvert]

I purchased a used Bushmaster AR-15 from a local dealer last month. It did not have any magazines but they told me they have some pre ban 30 round mags. So I purchased 2 of them because they said the were pre ban. The only marking I found on each of them says: "X090" on the side and close to the bottom of the magazine. Is this the date stamp?

The floor plate have a name on it??

 

[GL523]

I'll have to look at it and get back to you.

 

[Stratocaster1422]

On Orlite Israeli mags, is the stamp with that looks like a fraction the date stamp? If so, there was a entire "PRE-BAN" box of them at the Fitchburg show with stamps of 06-08 on them! Only $8 or 2 for $15 though!

 

[Madball13]

New "refurbished" mags are most likely new C-Products sold at a hyper inflated price to the unsuspecting masses in MA due to no date stamp on the bodies last time I checked.You can order them directly from C-Products with Magpul enhancements I believe.

Couple years ago I seen brand new $9.00 C-Products mags (When bought in quantities of 100) being sold for $30.00 as pre-ban mags in everyones favorite shop.They didn't even bother to switch out the floorplates

Recently i was at a shop south of boston that was selling C-products mags new for $40. i was a little ticked because there obviously not pre ban and if i was in NH i could score that mag for 10 bucks meaning the NH dealer probably paid 6-7 for it and marked it up to ten. so here is this dealer selling illegal mags and making a killing. And every high cap Glock mag on the shelf had the ambi cut in them.

 

[OLAK]

There were two different tables at the Fitchburg show that had new C prod 30 round mags marked as pre-ban. Another table had 20 mags for $30 and the lowest he go was $25 if you bought a bunch of them.