cast loads with wheel weights and range scrap

[headednorth]

Looking to cast some 357 mag and 3006 to start off. I have some wheel weight ingots and some range scrap. Trying to figure out if I can cast bullets with the range scrap as is or if I need to add to it to get the bhn up. (im going under the assumption the avg bhn for rs is 10).

Looking to shoot...
-midrange 357 loads which should be around 1000-1100fps and magnum loads at around 1500 fps.
-3006 rounds, target loads for out to 200yds at around 1500 fps and 100 yrd target loads around 1000fps.
-later will cast for 9mm and 45acp at around 1000/1100fps and 800fps respectively.
So...

-Can I load the midrange 357 and 100yrd 3006 with straight ww or range scrap? Without gas checks I assume?
-Can I load the magnum 357 and 200 yard 3006 this way as well, or do I need to add to it to get the BHN up? Do I need gas checks? If I use gas checks, do I still have to raise the BHN?
-Can I load 9mm and 45 acp at those velocities with ww and range scrap? Guessing the BHN needs to be higher.

Thanks in advance

 

[mac1911]

I use straight clip on wheel weights for my cmp vintage match rifles.
From 1150fps blinkers to about 1800fps.
My go to load in the 1903a3 is 16 grains 2400 and a ranchdog 165 grain flat nose bullet.
I have been adding a little tin to just get a nicer fill on the molds. 308,30-06,303,54r,7.7jap,8mm
I have been shooting lead recovered from indoor range in 45 acp 9mm and 38/357 target loads.

Just in case you have not found this
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

C.E. Harris has lots of good info on casting.

 

[headednorth]

I use straight clip on wheel weights for my cmp vintage match rifles.
From 1150fps blinkers to about 1800fps.
My go to load in the 1903a3 is 16 grains 2400 and a ranchdog 165 grain flat nose bullet.
I have been adding a little tin to just get a nicer fill on the molds. 308,30-06,303,54r,7.7jap,8mm
I have been shooting lead recovered from indoor range in 45 acp 9mm and 38/357 target loads.

Just in case you have not found this
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

C.E. Harris has lots of good info on casting.

I did see that article, thats actually where I came up with the 100-200 yard loads. Seems similar to what Im aiming for. I'll have to take a second look but I didnt see any mention of bhn min or max. Really Im just looking to get started and want to know if I should be ordering any alloys to add for the higher velocity loads and the semi auto pistol rounds.

eta- from the Harris article.

Because it is a mild load, soft scrap alloys usually give better accuracy than harder ones,​

 

[mac1911]

I can't say for pistol but for 200 yard loads wheel weights have been fine. Gas checked and lubed with 2500

I use the 130 grain M1 carbine plain based bullet for fun plinking with bullseye powder I also load a light 100 yard load.
Everything else is loaded with H4895 or 2400 with a few Varget loads mixed in for 200 yards.
I will be trying cast in the 303 enfield to see if it's worth shooting in cmp match.

 

[headednorth]

I use straight clip on wheel weights for my cmp vintage match rifles.
From 1150fps blinkers to about 1800fps.
My go to load in the 1903a3 is 16 grains 2400 and a ranchdog 165 grain flat nose bullet.
I have been adding a little tin to just get a nicer fill on the molds. 308,30-06,303,54r,7.7jap,8mm
I have been shooting lead recovered from indoor range in 45 acp 9mm and 38/357 target loads.

Just in case you have not found this
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

C.E. Harris has lots of good info on casting.

Indoor range lead tends to be a lot of .22 which is closer to pure lead? Is that correct?

 

[headednorth]

I can't say for pistol but for 200 yard loads wheel weights have been fine. Gas checked and lubed with 2500

Thanks, good to know. Is Hitek an ok alternative to the 2500 lube?

 

[mac1911]

Indoor range lead tends to be a lot of .22 which is closer to pure lead? Is that correct?

That would depend on the range? I have no idea what the Bn is on my alloy. I'm not pushing it hard enough to matter. Proper size from all I learned and been told is more important until you start pushing them fast.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks, good to know. Is Hitek an ok alternative to the 2500 lube?

Have not even looked into coatings other than Lee tumble lube which seems to work for me.
Coating is another element I need more stuff space and time to do. Maybe when I'm,down to about 1/2 pound of lube I will look into it.

 

[Fixxah]

Toss in a little linotype to bump up the hardness. Fast loads need a gas check. Range lead is generally real soft.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

I use wheel weights and a bit of linotype to harden it up. My hardness test is very scientific. If I can scratch a bullet with my thumbnail it's too soft. If I cant, it's just right.
I only use gas checks on magnum loads and others that really faster than normal.

 

[MGnoob]

Before i started adding linotype, id water drop them.
If you know its is indeed ww, waterdropped should be as hard as you need to be and less expensive.

I have a good tester, but i don't remember the hardness of air cooled vs water dropped off hand but it is substantial.

 

[NavelOfficer]

Can't say what my alloys measure out at either. Range scrap and wheel weights have always worked for me. Most of my cast loads are reduced velocity loads (plain base under 1300 fps, gas checks for higher velocities).
As "mac1911 said, tin helps with mold fill-out, so I might add some tin (high tin content solder isn't very cheap, but it's my best source). I also find that tapping the mold once the pour is complete seems to aid in fill-out and it also appears to change the molecular structure of the bullet (the latter is probably just my imagination...no proof available).
I do drop all of my castings into water and I don't know when I last cleaned my rifle bores. They appear to look just fine (then again, I'm not that particular, I suppose). Even less than perfect cast bullets get used in my plinkers and they outshoot me.
The powder-puff.cast loads below were not fitted with gas checks...

The grouping is poor due to my inability to keep the 2x scope on the same aim point.

 

[mac1911]

Also if you have not found this yet and for those interested this has more info than most of us will ever apply to our loads.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Again im shooting at velocities that are just good enough to be accurate at the distance im shooting at. Many of my rifles are more accurate at 200 yards with "low" velocity" low cost alloy with even the best match grade ammo.

http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

more stuff

have fun.... I had my COWW alloy tested and they came in at 14bhn?

 

[PL-52]

Got my 1st mould delivered Thursday (9 MM Round nose) cleaned it , getting ready to cast my first lot real soon, Today I'm smelting down a bunch of lead wheel weights and fluxing. Making ingots for the casting session. Made an ash mallet on the lathe, bought a sizing dye, need some ALOX before i size them after I cast. Hopefully be all set to get going this weekend. I'm off for 4 days so it's time to experiment.

 

[noylj]

-Can I load the midrange 357 and 100yrd 3006 with straight ww or range scrap? Without gas checks I assume?

Yes. I find that 10-13 BHN works for everything, though I use gas checks for loads that exceed 1800 fps. FIT is what counts, NOT BHN. Never had any issue in 7mm TC/U, .30-06, .30-30, or .223 at 1500 fps or less, and always used a gas check above that). Last time I saw prices for gas checks, though, I might just want an 18-22 BHN alloy so I wouldn't have to use gas checks.
Remember, Keith did all development work on .44 Mag with 10 BHN alloy and had no leading because he understood FIT.

-Can I load the magnum 357 and 200 yard 3006 this way as well, or do I need to add to it to get the BHN up? Do I need gas checks? If I use gas checks, do I still have to raise the BHN?

No, you don't have to raise the BHN if you use gas checks. FIT is what matters. Why are you thinking that 200 yards is different from 100 yards? The bullet in the gun doesn't know anything about distance.

-Can I load 9mm and 45 acp at those velocities with ww and range scrap? Guessing the BHN needs to be higher.

Obviously, you can. Why would BHN need to higher for these mild cartridges?
Old timers, like me, consider 13-15 BHN to be HARD and used it for rifles without gas checks for almost 100 years before this sudden need for hardness came about. 9mm and .45 and .40 work quite well with 8-10 BHN.
When you cast, about all you might need is some tin (from solder if you can find Pb/Sn solder, or type metal) to improve the flow of the melt in the mold. You don't NEED a higher BHN, with good fit and lubricant (see Carnauba Red from White Label Lube—good for up to 2700 fps).
The only time I have had leading in the last 20 years is using commercial cast bullets from an 18-22 BHN alloy. For such hard alloys, you almost HAVE to increase bullet diameter by at least another 0.001" to actually seal the bore. I had to lightly tumble lube such bullets in LLA to eliminate leading.

 

[noylj]

Note: Try as-cast bullets before you start sizing them. My tests, back in the '70s with .44 Mag, .45 Auto, and 9x19, showed that as-cast were always as accurate or MORE accurate than sized bullets. That was my impetus to go to pan lubing and then tumble lube.

 

[headednorth]

No, you don't have to raise the BHN if you use gas checks. FIT is what matters. Why are you thinking that 200 yards is different from 100 yards? The bullet in the gun doesn't know anything about distance.

Im going under the assumption that a load for plinking at 100y is going to have less velocity than a load meant for shooting tight groups at 200y. I assumed a hotter load is more likely to lead the barrel and would need a gas check.



Obviously, you can. Why would BHN need to higher for these mild cartridges?
Old timers, like me, consider 13-15 BHN to be HARD and used it for rifles without gas checks for almost 100 years before this sudden need for hardness came about. 9mm and .45 and .40 work quite well with 8-10 BHN.
When you cast, about all you might need is some tin (from solder if you can find Pb/Sn solder, or type metal) to improve the flow of the melt in the mold. You don't NEED a higher BHN, with good fit and lubricant (see Carnauba Red from White Label Lube—good for up to 2700 fps).
The only time I have had leading in the last 20 years is using commercial cast bullets from an 18-22 BHN alloy. For such hard alloys, you almost HAVE to increase bullet diameter by at least another 0.001" to actually seal the bore. I had to lightly tumble lube such bullets in LLA to eliminate leading.

I could of sworn I read some place that auto loaders need a higher bhn.

Thanks for the info. I think I recognize your user name and iirc you tend to post infrequently but when you do its always good info. Wish you would post more. Thanks.

eta- tried to blend in my responses with your quotes from the previous post with your text in bold and mine in regular font, but it all kind of blends together. FYI, some of my new text is in the quote box above.

 

[noylj]

It's just that I use the same bullet and the same alloy for my light loads and my near max loads for rifles and usually used gas checks for all of them since you CAN get leading somewhere north of 1500-1800 fps and anything inside 350 yards is still pretty close in in terms of velocity to reach the target without having to lob the bullets into the target. My alloy has always been about 12 BHN. Fit and a good lube (see BAC and Carnauba Red).

 

[mac1911]

what I have learned from the breach loaders at one club
Is most plain base bullets can be pushed to about 1600fps with a good fitting bullet and lube. After that alloy plays a role to get it past 1800fps with out leading.

Now from what I learned so far is I can shoot my gas checked bullets with out a gas check to about 1150fps in my rifles with any alloy I have range scrap , COWW or any combo.
I find accuracy degrades with gas checked bullets with out a gas check once velocity climbs. I have only driven actual rang scrap bullets to 1900fps with a gas check out of my M1 about 200 rounds accuracy was soso and no signs of leading. I only know one person pushing 308 cast at 2200fps
Its all fun and as so many have told me bullet size is the high percent of leading problems

 

[BillNed]

I use a mix of Lead 8lbs, 2lbs of Wheel weights or 1lb of Linotype, and about 1lb Pewter for the Tin it also makes the lead pour smooth and makes smoother bullets. This gives me a Brinell of about 16-18 hardness.

 

[mac1911]

I use a mix of Lead 8lbs, 2lbs of Wheel weights or 1lb of Linotype, and about 1lb Pewter for the Tin it also makes the lead pour smooth and makes smoother bullets. This gives me a Brinell of about 16-18 hardness.

View attachment 231672

Your wasting tin using so much pewter.
You could cut that pewter amount in half and still have almost 5% tin with your lead/WW/pewter mix. Water dropped you might get 16-18bhn. I'm not sure at what tin% causes alloy to soften with age but it can/does my lead does not sit around to long after I alloy mix and cast .
My last batch trying to harden up some bullets tested out at 15bhn by my friends cabins tree tester.
I mixed up some scrap pure sheeting 8lbs, 4lbs link and .5 pewter . Been trying to get him to test some water quenched but I'm sure they are closer to 18bhn now.
I been running mostly clip on wheel weights and 2% tin using 64/37 solder I have.
Just a note: if it works that's all that matters.

 

[NavelOfficer]

Seems as though I posted this pic before, but my unknown BH wheel weight/range scrap bullets can't be that soft...

 

[mac1911]

Seems as though I posted this pic before, but my unknown BH wheel weight/range scrap bullets can't be that soft...

View attachment 231719

its surprising how little damage is done on bullets... I can pull lead bullets from the range that look fine other than the rifling engraved.

 

[BillNed]

Your wasting tin using so much pewter.
You could cut that pewter amount in half and still have almost 5% tin with your lead/WW/pewter mix. Water dropped you might get 16-18bhn. I'm not sure at what tin% causes alloy to soften with age but it can/does my lead does not sit around to long after I alloy mix and cast .
My last batch trying to harden up some bullets tested out at 15bhn by my friends cabins tree tester.
I mixed up some scrap pure sheeting 8lbs, 4lbs link and .5 pewter . Been trying to get him to test some water quenched but I'm sure they are closer to 18bhn now.
I been running mostly clip on wheel weights and 2% tin using 64/37 solder I have.
Just a note: if it works that's all that matters.

I have been using this mix for a while I find that 10% works well. Anything over does not seem to increase the hardness to any great amount. I have run tests on bullets I have made and found that the bullets get harder as the time goes on not a great amount but a few Brinell. If I use less than 10% I don't get the hardness I want for Rifle bullets. Right now I have enough metal for 14,000 150grn bullets. And then Hi-Tec coat and they work well in both Pistol and Rifle.

 

[mac1911]

I have been using this mix for a while I find that 10% works well. Anything over does not seem to increase the hardness to any great amount. I have run tests on bullets I have made and found that the bullets get harder as the time goes on not a great amount but a few Brinell. If I use less than 10% I don't get the hardness I want for Rifle bullets. Right now I have enough metal for 14,000 150grn bullets. And then Hi-Tec coat and they work well in both Pistol and Rifle.

what works in the end is all that matters.
I try to use my alloy like I actually paid for it.
Pewter 92%tin 8% antimony runs about $21lb
Linotype 4%tin 12% antimony 84% lead is running cheap at the moment and you can get about 4lbs for $20 I was paying 8$ pound not to long ago.

You could mix 1lb pure, 1lb lino , .2lbs pewter and come out with 10%tin and bhn of about 18.

Right now my favorite overall alloy is 10lb clip on wheel weights and 1/2 lb pewter water dropped bhn was 18 as tested by a NES member who I lost contact with. It's about 5% tin
I bought some know virgin alloy lyma n #2 and my alloy behaves just like it.
Find what works is key. I'm just rambling