Case Trimming -- Frankford Arsenal Case Prep Center vs Giraud Tri-Way comparison

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Edit 7/1 -- please read entire thread since updates are scattered throughout



Hi guys. I have been using the FA Case Prep center (LINK) for a while. The cutting head it came with was awful, and completely dull after about 2000 cases. I replaced it with an RCBS carbide cutter. I was an early adopter of the FA prep center, so I paid about $200 for it, and $45 for the RCBS cutting head.


I always thought it was great, albeit a bit slow. I couldn't justify the cost of a Giraud in my mind, since I just pop the TV on and trim mindlessly. However, with the pile of 223 growing larger, I needed something faster if I ever wanted to get through it.


Enter the Giraud Tri-Way LINK) -- the same cutting head as their $480 trimmer, but for $90 (8$ shipping). You need to provide the spinning power. For this I grabbed a 1/4HP 1750RPM motor off of Amazon (LINK) for $55 (open box deal), a power cord for $8 (LINK), and a shaft coupler for $12 (LINK). Got it all wired up (side note -- this motor apparently needs a starting capacitor, so you'll need to give it a spin start if you don't buy a cap) and connected in about 10 minutes.

Kudos to Pat McD for doing this first -- I got the idea from his posts in the other thread


Total cost at today's prices -- about $210 for the FA w/ RCBS cutting head, and $185 for "my" Giraud setup. Note that the Giraud is caliber specific, but the FA can accommodate any cartridge. Keep that in mind if you need to bulk trim multiple calibers.


Basic observations are that the motor I used for the Giraud is quieter, but needs to be clamped to the bench. When cutting, I think the FA is a bit quieter. The Giraud traps all shavings, but the FA directs them downwards from the cutter.


The FA requires less effort to hold the case -- I felt like the Giraud required more pressure to keep the case from snagging on the cutter. These cases were still covered in sizing lube, so this may be a non-issue with gloves on, or if you tumble before trimming.


I have a bunch of TAA09 brass that is really long, most around 1.770". I trim to 1.750" nominally, but I didn't spend a whole lot of time setting either cutter up for this test -- I just ballparked it.


The FA case center took 22 seconds to trim 0.0185" (1.770" to 1.7515") and 4 seconds to chamfer/deburr. This comes out to about 0.00085"/second, but every case requires the 4 second chamfer/deburr. I have done thousands of cases on the FA at this point, and feel those times are consistent.


The Giraud took 39 seconds to trim from 1.7650" to 1.7455", and chamfers/deburrs during the process. This works out to 0.0005"/second. I confirmed this on multiple cases. You'll notice in the video that I didn't rotate the case in the Giraud 180 degrees as I finshed like you're supposed to, which caused a less than perfect chamfer. When used properly, the Giraud gives a perfectly clean chamfer. I will update this post within a day or so with a pic to show the chamfers.


The complaint I have about the Giraud is how badly it marks up the cases. In this photo, the FA trimmed case is on the left, Giraud on the right. These may or may not polish out when tumbled -- I haven't tried. I plan to wet tumble these cases, so I will update the pictures when I do that. I used to use a Possum Hollow trimmer which caused similar marks that did not polish out in a dry tumbler -- I didn't own a wet tumbler back then though.


_DCS4761.jpg



Frankford Arsenal Case Prep Center
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kNh1aOTg7c


Giraud Trimmer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a75Jr5vrjcQ



Based on that, unless you only have a little bit to trim off of the cases (0.004"), the Giraud isn't worth it with a 1750 RPM motor, IMO. Say your cases are 1.760" -- the Giraud will get those completed in 20 seconds total, and the FA will take 12 second of trimming for 16 seconds total.

Stay tuned for updates regarding chamfer pics, and wet tumbling results. I will also post pictures of the full Giraud setup so you guys can get a feel for the size of it.
 
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Interesting..I've trimmed cases over 1.7 with my tri way and I don't believe it took that long at all. I use a 3/8" corded drill clamped in my vice. Drill max speed is 2500 rpm and I don't run it at full speed. I guess I'll have to time it when I do more.
 
Interesting..I've trimmed cases over 1.7 with my tri way and I don't believe it took that long at all. I use a 3/8" corded drill clamped in my vice. Drill max speed is 2500 rpm and I don't run it at full speed. I guess I'll have to time it when I do more.

Does yours mar the cases up as bad as the one shown? That is what pissed me off the most. Why even put the bearing in there if it isn't going to do anything?

Slightly off topic, but can you do crimped pockets with the FA case prep center?

You probably could find a deburring tool that is threaded the same as the accessory heads. I replaced the primer pocket cleaner (the 12-o-clock accessory) with a Redding primer pocket uniformer -- it was the same thread pattern as the handle it came attached to.

Updates will come tomorrow evening, or Sunday (probably Sunday) -- ran out of time this evening and I'm going hiking tomorrow. Too many projects going on at the same time [crying]
 
Somethings wrong. I dont understand why it takes so long for it to trim on your tri-way. It literally takes 2, maybe 3 seconds to do each one on my unit. And I don't get bad marks on my cars like yours.
 
I just used my Tri-Way setup for a little over an hour, and I'm very underwhelmed. Only did 126 cases in that time, and my hand is numb from having to hold the case as hard as I did (with gloves) to keep it from chattering and sticking. Tomorrow I'm going to try it in my drill press at the fastest speed to see if it's any better, because the current setup sucks.

ETA, scratch that, my crappy HF drill press only runs CW. I'll see how motivated I am tomorrow to swap polarity on the motor wires.
 
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I was underwhelmed at the beginning as well, but it got better and works great now.

I used a Milwaukee hole shooter clamped in a bench vise. Tag says its 850 max rpm. Also I was using leather gloves at first and I was having the same issue at the beginning. The TW would grab and spin the case no matter how hard I gripped it and how lightly I pushed it into the cutter. I switched to those cotton gloves with the rubber on the palms and it worked better. I tried to be gentle about pushing the case into the trimmer and after a while it got to the point where it was working as advertised, so to speak. Im guessing it was a combination of the glove giving a better grip, the trimmer being broken in a bit (Possibly? Maybe its just too sharp out of the box?), and me just getting the hang of it.

No marks on the cases here, so I cant offer anything with regards to that issue.
 
I was underwhelmed at the beginning as well, but it got better and works great now.

I used a Milwaukee hole shooter clamped in a bench vise. Tag says its 850 max rpm. Also I was using leather gloves at first and I was having the same issue at the beginning. The TW would grab and spin the case no matter how hard I gripped it and how lightly I pushed it into the cutter. I switched to those cotton gloves with the rubber on the palms and it worked better. I tried to be gentle about pushing the case into the trimmer and after a while it got to the point where it was working as advertised, so to speak. Im guessing it was a combination of the glove giving a better grip, the trimmer being broken in a bit (Possibly? Maybe its just too sharp out of the box?), and me just getting the hang of it.

No marks on the cases here, so I cant offer anything with regards to that issue.

There definitely is a feel to it. I used Mechanix gloves today and they seemed to work much better than no gloves, or latex gloves. I timed several cases, and was able to trim a few of those TAA09's that were ~1.770 in 20 sec (as opposed to 39sec), but never any faster than that.
 
Prior to trimming, I ran all my cases through a case gauge, pulled out the ones shorter than 1.750, and trimmed the rest. I didnt measure before I trimmed, so I couldnt say how long a particular length took. Some took longer, some barely took any time at all. I dont recall any taking 20 seconds though.
 
I'd be making a call to Giroud. Watch my video again. If it takes longer than that, somethings wrong.
Dumb question, but do you have it reversed?
 
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I use a Milwaukee 1/2" drill clamped in a vice and it takes 2-4 secs / piece. Low speed high torque. I have to think it's an issue with your cutter...
 
I just used my Tri-Way setup for a little over an hour, and I'm very underwhelmed. Only did 126 cases in that time, and my hand is numb from having to hold the case as hard as I did (with gloves) to keep it from chattering and sticking. Tomorrow I'm going to try it in my drill press at the fastest speed to see if it's any better, because the current setup sucks. ETA, scratch that, my crappy HF drill press only runs CW. I'll see how motivated I am tomorrow to swap polarity on the motor wires.

Why would you want it to run counter clockwise? I'm pretty sure you can't just swap polarity on a single phase motor to make it run in reverse anyways.
 
Why would you want it to run counter clockwise? I'm pretty sure you can't just swap polarity on a single phase motor to make it run in reverse anyways.

The Giraud is designed to be spun by a CCW motor.

Some motors are reversible, some aren't. There is no information tag on my HF drill press, so I'd have to pull the terminal cover and check. Alternatively, I could probably just bypass the starting cap on it and spin-start it CCW, but I don't really feel like dissecting a working drill press to try and fix what seems like a busted cutter, haha.
 
I'm not arguing anything here but the triway instructions say "counter clockwise when looking at the end of tool where cartridge is inserted" . So a drill press should achieve that ,and a regular cordless drill on " forward" spins the tool counter clockwise when watching it where cartridges go in the tool.
 
I'm not arguing anything here but the triway instructions say "counter clockwise when looking at the end of tool where cartridge is inserted" . So a drill press should achieve that ,and a regular cordless drill on " forward" spins the tool counter clockwise when watching it where cartridges go in the tool.

Yup, you're completely correct [rofl]. I only looked at it briefly last night, and I guess I was a little tired and got it backwards.

However, I discovered the real problem here. There was damage to the cutter itself, with a chunk of metal missing from the "V" area.

_DCS4779.jpg



Luckily for me, by design, the cutting head is triangular, with two other "V" cutters. Here is a good one, for comparison.

_DCS4780.jpg


Unfortunately I think it arrived this way, or broke on the very first case, since I had issues from the get go. I'll email Giraud and see what they think.



The good news is that when I switched to a fresh cutting surface, the setup works as it should!

It's quieter, it doesn't shake as much, and the cases are MUCH easier to hold.

I don't sort my 223 brass, so my "to be trimmed" pile is a mix of different headstamps and case lengths. I timed several batches this morning to see roughly how many cases/hour I can do.

Batch 1 -- 50 cases -- 6:11
Batch 2 -- 50 cases -- 6:13
Batch 3 -- 50 cases -- 7:26
Batch 4 -- 50 cases -- 7:03
Batch 5 -- 50 cases -- 7:26
Batch 6 -- 100 cases -- 11:57
Batch 7 -- 150 cases -- 19:34

Total = 500 cases in 65:50, or 7.9 sec/case average (455/hr). Anecdotally, those TAA09 cases I had that are around 1.770" were taking 12-15sec to trim to just shy of 1.750", which is nearly a 50% improvement over the Frankford Arsenal.

Additionally, I wet tumbled those 500 cases (plus the ~130 I trimmed last night), and every single case looks perfect -- those circumferential marks left during trimming are no longer visible at all.

Here is a shot of the quality of the chamfer/deburr the Giraud leaves, before tumbling.
_DCS4792.jpg



And, pictures of the whole setup.

_DCS4783.jpg


_DCS4787.jpg


So overall, I'm now happy with it since it is running as it should. The speed gains are substantial over the FA, which is the whole reason I bought it.
 
Glad you got it figured out. I have the Trim-it, which is similar but doesn't chamfer the edges (though apparently they released a new revision that does) and I can do about 500/hour.
 
Got the 1/4HP 3450RPM motor in today and ran a few hundred cases. Pace is now up to about 600/hr with my mixed brass. HUGE time savings now over the FA Prep Center! Definitely go with a 3000RPM+ motor if you decide to go with this kind of setup. The marring on the case has diminished a fair amount too -- I now believe it was some excess grease on the bearing transferring to the case, in addition to the case lube smudging. Either way, it is unnoticeable after wet tumbling.

Also, I spoke with Giraud, and they are sending me a new cutter. I thought it might be a metallurgical failure of the steel, but Doug mentioned it looked consistent with what happens when a case is run the wrong way against the cutting head -- even if it is only spun by hand and not connected to a power source. I didn't run the motor backwards, and I don't recall ever spinning a case against it the wrong way by hand , but will be sure to avoid doing so in the future.
 
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