Case neck thickness gauging and neck turning

[HarryPottar]

Hi All,

Back again with more questions, still building my precision hand loading set up. I'm shooting a bunch of match grade factory ammo (Federal Gold Medal 308 168 grain with Sierra MatchKing) at the moment that I got on sale ($0.90 per round) and collecting brass. Loving my Ruger Precision Rifle, so my main "aim" is to shoot this thing as much as possible and building the hand loading set up for those long winter nights.

I received the Hornady Lock n Load Ammo Concentricity Gauge, I also ordered the Hornady Neck Wall Thickness Gauge which adapts the former to a neck thickness gauge, however that was on back order.

I'm in no rush, so I can wait, but while I do my research and I do love to research, I found this nice looking tool from Sinclair (Link), which uses a nice digital read out.



Nice tool, around the $160-170 mark. But I also stumbled across this on Amazon (Link),



From the blurb this one is more precise in the measurement Resolution 0.00005"/0.001mm vs 0.0001on the Sinclair and a lot cheaper $55.95 coupled with a stand (Link) $16.99 it's makes what looks like a nice tool.

My thoughts, the Lock n Load Neck Wall Thickness Gauge is around the same price $53 and you have to fiddle with change over, now granted you're are not using these everyday but I like the thought of an easy to read digital read out of the other too.

Those that do neck thickness gauge, is it worth the extra time, do you see a difference, whats your prefered tool or should I stop and seek professional counseling?

Thanks in advance.

harry

 

[mac1911]

I can't tell you if it will make a difference or not down range BUT I will tell you. If you constantly have to switch and adapt tooling it gets old.
This is why we end up with so many "extra" tools.
I bought extra calipers after I bought the hornady case gauge and oal length gauge set ups.
Yeah it's just thumb screw to switch...but the first time that darn screw vanishes !!!!
Only thing I can think of is how many points to the right of the decimal are going to matter.
At what point does neck turning come into play?
I get where your coming from and wish I had the time and money to really build up a great gun and load and skills for these small things to matter because I would be right there with you.
It's all fun and seeing results down range is the pay off.

I'm a fan of brownells and Sinclair. Both have nice tools and brownells has been 100% on there customer service and guaranty.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I think you might find that this is one of those things that only makes a difference if you think it makes a difference.

 

[HarryPottar]

I think you might find that this is one of those things that only makes a difference if you think it makes a difference.

LOL, Never a truer word spoken.

I watched a youtube guy first weigh and sort each piece of brass by weight, then measure and sort further by neck thickness, then finally measure and sort by volume displacement.

At some point, one as to ask how much of this as an effect, neck thickness I would have thought directly impacts neck tension, although I can not see me sorting brass by weight. If I get that good where I can see the minor difference between brass weight I'm looking for sponsorship.

@Eddie, do you measure neck wall thickness?, assuming you don't but thought I would ask

harry

 

[radioman]

Unless your shooting 1 mile+ your not going to notice any difference by standardizing your neck concentricity.

Also to measure every case neck will drive you crazy by the 13 case. I think that's why 13 is unlucky.

 

[highscore]

Potter, you are out of control. If your going to go this route, your going to have to turn them until they are all the same as it's the eveness of the tension you are after. How much does it help... Nancy Tompkins writes in her "Prone and Long-Range Rifle Shooting" book that she preps the necks, looking for 80% of the neck thickness to be uniform. Then the case neck needs to be uniformed so that the bullet seats not too snug but so that you can't pull it out with your fingers. Finial length is obtained by finish seating the bullet in the chamber, pushing the bullet in about .015-.020. In other words, the bullets are seated long and chambering them produces the right amount of seating into the land. This is why the bullets are tensioned just enough where they will push back with consistant engraveing into the lands. You really want to get into this stuff?

 

[josh2600]

Are you buying your brass new or using once fired factory? Are you actually neck turning yet?

 

[vicorjh]

I have one of those iGaging micrometers you've noted. Hard to beat the price and it works well.

 

[Steve Marshall]

Consistent neck tension is necessary for consistent release of the bullet and that means consistent neck thickness. So, to get a batch of brass consistent, you find the thinnest case in the bunch and neck turn. You can find the thinnest case with a "ball" micrometer or even a caliper. Close enough for government work as the proof will be whether the batch cleans up. THEN you use the concentricity gage to weed out the banana cases.

 

[Mountain]

If you are pursuing 'benchrest' levels of accuracy and are already at 1/2 MOA or below, concentric and consistent neck thickness will make a difference. If you are above 1/2 MOA, in my humble opinion there are bigger fish to fry.

For example: I can get 1/3 MOA out of an AR with a heavy Krieger barrel and Compass Lake chamber just using Norma brass with consistent case length and full length sizing in basic Lee dies. Took some work to get the right OAL. No other detailed case prep. I do have some cases that a friend sorted and/or turned the necks. I fire-formed these and neck size only. Those will get 1/4 MOA or close but are not practical for anything but the bench.

Probably you can eliminate a lot of the variance via brass selection. Lapua and Norma are my favorites. I've had decent luck with Winchester as well. I've had a couple batches of Federal Match that were very consistent and gave super tight groups, but other batches varied wildly and produced groups as expected- crappy.

Don't forget that once you start turning necks, you will need to have the correct (smaller) bushing for your neck sizer in order to have correct tension.

 

[PatMcD]

Are you shooting competitive benchrest? If so, go nuts. Measure and sort everything. Weigh primers if you like.

Not shooting benchrest? Dump a bag of brass into the case feeder of a Dillon 650 and start crankin.

 

[76Too]

Step 1: buy a Remington 700.

Step 2: profit.

 

[HarryPottar]

Step 1: buy a Remington 700.

Step 2: profit.

Please explain how buying another rifle will make me profit? I will hate shooting it so I won't have to buy/reload ammo? It's not accurate so I can use cheap walmart ammo? I can resell for 800?

 

[mac1911]

Please explain how buying another rifle will make me profit? I will hate shooting it so I won't have to buy/reload ammo? It's not accurate so I can use cheap walmart ammo? I can resell for 800?

wait your doing it all wrong you need a 6mm platform..... like the T3x sub moa right out of the box

 

[76Too]

Please explain how buying another rifle will make me profit? I will hate shooting it so I won't have to buy/reload ammo? It's not accurate so I can use cheap walmart ammo? I can resell for 800?

Just saying that if you spent the extra bucks on a 700, you might have seen the accuracy you'r trying to gain right out of the box. Pretty sure the Ruger precision rifle is not really as accurate or proven as the 700. I'll personally never buy another Ruger firearm as long as I live after they refused to fix my Red Label because the series was discontinued. It's all fine and good that you saved money and bought a cool and super killy looking bolt action that takes AR parts, but it's heavy and doesn't have a track record of being a tack driver like some 700 models do. There's a reason the M24 is built on a 700 action.

My $.02...fwiw. I just can't picture myself testing case neck thickness during a reloading session...because typically I just want to get it done so I can go out and shoot! Not that I don't enjoy the process and the precision work, but what you're looking to do is just over my threshold of what I'm willing to spend time on. YMMV...not knocking you.

 

[HarryPottar]

Just saying that if you spent the extra bucks on a 700, you might have seen the accuracy you'r trying to gain right out of the box. Pretty sure the Ruger precision rifle is not really as accurate or proven as the 700. I'll personally never buy another Ruger firearm as long as I live after they refused to fix my Red Label because the series was discontinued. It's all fine and good that you saved money and bought a cool and super killy looking bolt action that takes AR parts, but it's heavy and doesn't have a track record of being a tack driver like some 700 models do. There's a reason the M24 is built on a 700 action.

My $.02...fwiw. I just can't picture myself testing case neck thickness during a reloading session...because typically I just want to get it done so I can go out and shoot! Not that I don't enjoy the process and the precision work, but what you're looking to do is just over my threshold of what I'm willing to spend time on. YMMV...not knocking you.

Thanks, I have nothing against remington 700 or any other rifle for that matter. At the moment any rifle is going to shoot more accurate than I will, I'm just starting out. I really enjoy shooting, after all that's the whole point, however I get just as much enjoyment in the technical side of things. I have a PhD in computer science, so I'm technically inclined by nature, I love research, technical perfection, numbers, data, deltas, math etc.

I have my Dillion all set up and I find it therapeutic to churn out ammo and it does churn out ammo. I'm building my hand loading station so I can tinker, I want to make sure I get the right equipment up front. I tend to do a lot of reloading over the winter but with hand loading where I want to tinker I'm going to have to shoot more test loads.

To be honest, with my level of shooting at the moment, I don't think I would see any difference in factory ammo or neck turned butt kissed brass. But my mother always taught me to "start as you mean to go on".

I love this forum, I do not have any family or friends that where into shooting so I've learnt what I have from everyone on here and the helpful guys down at Hopkinton Sportsman Club.

harry

 

[PatMcD]

Just saying that if you spent the extra bucks on a 700, you might have seen the accuracy you'r trying to gain right out of the box. Pretty sure the Ruger precision rifle is not really as accurate or proven as the 700. I'll personally never buy another Ruger firearm as long as I live after they refused to fix my Red Label because the series was discontinued. It's all fine and good that you saved money and bought a cool and super killy looking bolt action that takes AR parts, but it's heavy and doesn't have a track record of being a tack driver like some 700 models do. There's a reason the M24 is built on a 700 action.

My $.02...fwiw. I just can't picture myself testing case neck thickness during a reloading session...because typically I just want to get it done so I can go out and shoot! Not that I don't enjoy the process and the precision work, but what you're looking to do is just over my threshold of what I'm willing to spend time on. YMMV...not knocking you.

Umm, the Ruger is actually way more accurate out-of-the-box than any 700. The 700 can be made accurate, but you are going to spend 2-3 times to get what the Ruger Precision does out of the box.

That sucks that they didn't fix your Red Label, but look at it this way: "It's all fine and good that you saved money and bought a cool over-under, but it's heavy and doesn't have a track record of being a (reliable shotgun) like some (Browning Citori) models do."

 

[Steve Marshall]

'Cause the 50 years of trigger problems that Remington knew about makes the 700 the better rifle?

 

[josh2600]

The 700 is a great action, so great that 90% of custom action builders model after the 700. WITH THAT SAID, as far as what comes from the factory... meh. Well, let's just say that unless I have the means to buy their "top of the line" offering or the means to take whatever I do buy to a fantastic gunsmith to have the action blueprinted and a custom barrel put on, then I'll take a savage, thanks.

 

[mac1911]

The 700 is a great action, so great that 90% of custom action builders model after the 700. WITH THAT SAID, as far as what comes from the factory... meh. Well, let's just say that unless I have the means to buy their "top of the line" offering or the means to take whatever I do buy to a fantastic gunsmith to have the action blueprinted and a custom barrel put on, then I'll take a savage, thanks.

Savage....love them. They are not always nice out of the box but 1500$ buys you a lot of savage.
In the end you need to figure out whats your end goal and what needs to be done to get there.
My lack of shooting and degrading skills puts me in the 2moa category ....or minute of black of a SR1 is good!
Good luck and keep posting with reports of what you do and any gains.

As for the 700. I have not met to many "happy" 700 owners. Although they are mostly the low entry model owners trying to shoot a pencil barrel hunting rifle like a target gun.
Their maybe many custom makers out their using a 700 based design but are they taking a mass produced receiver and making it the best they can or having to build/machine their own receivers to tighten specs.?

 

[josh2600]

You are exactly right about why you don't meet many happy 700 owners.

Savage's floating bolt head has a lot to do with how nice they are, it also makes their actions very sloppy, I call them the ak47 of bolt guns. They also make a nice factory barrel, can't take that away from them. (As long as you don't get stuck with a Friday afternoon barrel, which has happened to me)

A good smith can take basically any 700 action and make it comparable to a custom, made from scratch, 700 modeled action. Precision wise at least. A Surgeon or Defiant might feel better but probably won't shoot any better. They are that good. King of the mountain basically.

 

[HarryPottar]

Update on original topic

Well in the end I ordered both, that's the problem with OCD

I already received the Hornady Neck Wall Thickness gauge that adapts the Lock n Load Ammo Concentricity Gauge. I have also ordered the iGaging Reloading Micrometer Tube Ball Spherical Anvil.

I intend to gauge the gauges to see which gauge gauges the neck wall the best and gauge which gauge to keep, then send the gauge I gauged not worth keeping back.

My redesigned reloading room is starting to take shape now, at some point will post some pictures in the correct thread.

harry

 

[vicorjh]

Nah, you'll likely end up wanting to keep both

 

[highscore]

You are exactly right about why you don't meet many happy 700 owners.

Savage's floating bolt head has a lot to do with how nice they are, it also makes their actions very sloppy, I call them the ak47 of bolt guns. They also make a nice factory barrel, can't take that away from them. (As long as you don't get stuck with a Friday afternoon barrel, which has happened to me)

A good smith can take basically any 700 action and make it comparable to a custom, made from scratch, 700 modeled action. Precision wise at least. A Surgeon or Defiant might feel better but probably won't shoot any better. They are that good. King of the mountain basically.

Just like a good Smith can make a 700 action work well, Larry Racine does the same for Savage, check out his website- http://www.lprgunsmith.com

 

[josh2600]

Just like a good Smith can make a 700 action work well, Larry Racine does the same for Savage, check out his website- http://www.lprgunsmith.com

I hope you didn't take what I said to be a dig at savage, it wasn't. I run precision rifle matches with a savage. It's a 12 target action so it's supposedly factory blueprinted, but regardless, factory built.

I'll check him out though, thanks.

 

[highscore]

I hope you didn't take what I said to be a dig at savage, it wasn't. I run precision rifle matches with a savage. It's a 12 target action so it's supposedly factory blueprinted, but regardless, factory built.

I'll check him out though, thanks.

No not at all. Larry's a great guy and I've seen his rifles shoot very well so I thought I'd give him a mention for those who don't know about him.

 

[mac1911]

I hope you didn't take what I said to be a dig at savage, it wasn't. I run precision rifle matches with a savage. It's a 12 target action so it's supposedly factory blueprinted, but regardless, factory built.

I'll check him out though, thanks.

I'm,surrounded by people who buy all sorts of guns because of how awesome they are right from the box. I'm not able to afford such luxury.
I have a mind set that goes like this.
I'm always a little shocked how well $500 savage shoots with decent ammo.
I just don't feel the love for a $500 remington
Now start getting more expensive?
What do you expect from a 1200-1500$ rifle.
I see a lot of tikka and sako at this price range and the small circle of shooters around me with them are not running out buying stocks,triggers,barrels etc.
Every rifle has potential some are better than others. It's a crazy game and some parts of that game cost money and or time to do well.
One of the better shooters at my club had a new rifle a bergera? Had it topped with his trusty old Lyman 3-9 4x scope. His personal base level testing scope. I thought it was a ugly gun but he put 5 rounds under 1" at 100 yards with factory 6.5

 

[Mountain]

Well in the end I ordered both, that's the problem with OCD

I already received the Hornady Neck Wall Thickness gauge that adapts the Lock n Load Ammo Concentricity Gauge. I have also ordered the iGaging Reloading Micrometer Tube Ball Spherical Anvil.

I intend to gauge the gauges to see which gauge gauges the neck wall the best and gauge which gauge to keep, then send the gauge I gauged not worth keeping back.

My redesigned reloading room is starting to take shape now, at some point will post some pictures in the correct thread.

harry

Will you be using the insert type neck or FL sizing dies? If you are going to be turning necks, it's not optional- you must be able to set the correct neck pressure and that takes the correct neck sizer dimension. Some FL (full length) dies will use neck sizing inserts, such as RCBS competition. Best to calculate what you think you need and buy ~3 to cover that size plus or minus some variance.

I am only bothering with neck size inserts for my 6.5 Creedmoor, and just getting started to do that. This is rifle consistently shoots 1/2 MOA and ~1/3 MOA if I'm careful. I'll attempt to get it to 1/4 MOA or as close as I can get and neck pressure is only one of many further tweaks. Any rifle shooting MOA or above, don't forget to work out other bugs while you go nuts on case neck uniformity. Sounds like you will get to exorcise some OCD demons and that's fun for its own sake, but just don't get frustrated with the results when there are more significant factors to control.

Squeezing the most accuracy from what you have can be very rewarding if you like working on fine details. It's fun for me to get a rifle to be more accurate than expected. My personal favorite was getting my Dad's 7mm Mag Winchester model 70 elk rifle from 1-1/2 MOA to .84 MOA as measured in my club's hunter class benchrest match. No neck turning involved, LOL...