Case bulge with Lee .356 cast bullets?

[Point&Shoot]

Hey guys.. I have about 5000 bullets cast with a six gang .356 TL Lee mold that are bulging the brass. I've never had this happen with bullets purchased from Better Bullets, Rim Rock or Bayou Bullets or in any of the plated bullets ive tried from Berry's, FMP, or XTreme.
The calipers tells me my cast bullets measure .359 and some 124 gr plated I have. (I think XTreme) measure .356. Does this simply mean i have to buy a Lee sizing die to push 5000 bullets thru or am i missing something. Is there that much variation in a .356 TL mold or does it have something to do with the properties of the lead i'm using. Can a bullet expand aftet being released from the mold? I included a picture but its probably not needed. Thanks a lot but i cant imagine i won't be ordering a die and single stage press tomorrow.

 

[mac1911]

Everything has some degree of final bullet size.
Are all your bullets the same size from beginning of session to end. Are you using a known alloy. There is a lot of into here.
Cast bullet alloys, characteristics of CB alloys, maintenance of CB alloys

I found in my steel molds slightly colder mold temps cast fatter bullets with a hot alloy say 700'F or so.

That said have you slugged your bore? Will the cast function?
Make sure your mold # on the mold block matches the box.
Lees quality control is factored into the price so it's not to hard for a "357" mold to end up in a 9mm box.
Welcome to casting
I will add I have many Lee molds and the TL pistol I use for 38spl, 9mm and 45 All function great and I have never even taken a cal to them for measurement. Checked loaded round with chamber of intended pistol.

 

[OutdoorFanatic]

 

[NavelOfficer]

Most molds tend to drop a slightly oversized bullet which will require proper sizing with your lubrisizer or Lee-type sizing dies. I don't know how close the TL molds drop since I don't go that route, but I suspect the small bands will alter to fit your bore.
Measure twice and load once. All other things being equal, a wider bullet diameter will tend to expand the case diameter when seated, so maintaining a consistent bullet diameter is essential. I don't know how much swaging will occur as you seat an oversized cast bullet to reduce the bullet diameter.
Ultimately, your finished round dimensions are what need to be checked. For 9x19mm you should not exceed .380" at the mouth (this doesn't mean some guns won't chamber a round exceeding .380" diameter, but that's the spec).

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

This is common in 9mm and other tapered cases.
All of my 9 look like that. Deeper seating due to longer bullets. Also due to oversized cast lead.
If they chamber just shoot them. Don’t worry about aesthetics.
The TL style mould can be sized a little larger and still function because the micro grooves have less bearing surface and will swage down in the bore easier than a traditional groove cast or a jacketed or plated without a groove.

Your biggest concern with the lead is make sure that the bullet is not undersized once seated.
Seat a couple test rounds and bullet the bullets. Make sure they’re the proper size for your barrel.
9mm with standard expanders will tend to squeeze down your bullets due to the expander giving proper neck tension for a .356 bullet.
With softer alloys this neck tension will squeeze down your bullet leaving it undersized. That will cause tumbling and or leading.
You might be surprised that your .359 bullets are turning into .357 once they get into the brass.

So if they chamber shoot them. Just don’t start with max loads.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Do they fit in the gage?

 

[gerrycaruso]

It's not uncommon for loaded rounds to have that Wasp Waist appearance. If they chamber, shoot them.

 

[EddieCoyle]

What this guy recommends is a really bad idea. He claims that he backed off the sizing die but "the bullet is good and tight there". Well, what if you try the same thing and your brass cases are a bit thinner?

I've measured the case wall thickness of various headstamps of brass and found that thickness can range from 0.008" to 0.014".

With thinner brass, this guy's "trick" will cause the bullet to be too loosely held in the case mouth, which can result in a dangerous amount of setback when the round slams into the feed ramp during chambering. If you sort your brass by headstamp and readjust the die when you change brands of brass, you might get this trick to work, but I still wouldn't trust it.

When die manufacturers produce the sizing dies, they need to make a die that will squeeze even the thinnest brass enough so that it holds a bullet. This means that thicker brass will be squeezed down too much, which is OK because the expander die re-widens the top of the case the right amount for the bullet diameter. This results in a case that looks bulged at the top. The fact that the 9mm is a tapered case and the die is straight just adds to the effect. For the record, Dillon dies cause the worst bulge, while RCBS seems to produce the least.

Factory ammo doesn't look like this because factory ammo is not produced the way we make reloads. There's no sizing or conventional expander dies used to make factory ammo because the factories order/make the brass the correct size right from the start.

If you measure a round of factory ammo at the case mouth, halfway down the body, and at the base, then shoot it, reload it, and measure it again, you'll find that the top isn't bulged, but the middle is squished in.

Don't try to correct it. Like Gerry said, if the rounds chamber, just shoot them.

 

[mac1911]

When you try to resize a loaded buldged case like in the video especially with plain lead is the lead does not have as much elastic or rebound properties as the brass.
I tried doing this once with rifle ammo when I relised I used unsized .314" bullets in my 30-06 loads. Figured I could just use neck size die and nock it down to fit the neck portion of the chamber. 3 shots into the match I could not figure out where the powder was coming from. Then found a case with out a bullet down in the mag. Started pushing on the loaded bullets and 80% moved with just thumb pressure.

 

[OutdoorFanatic]

What this guy recommends is a really bad idea. He claims that he backed off the sizing die but "the bullet is good and tight there". Well, what if you try the same thing and your brass cases are a bit thinner?

I've measured the case wall thickness of various headstamps of brass and found that thickness can range from 0.008" to 0.014".

With thinner brass, this guy's "trick" will cause the bullet to be too loosely held in the case mouth, which can result in a dangerous amount of setback when the round slams into the feed ramp during chambering. If you sort your brass by headstamp and readjust the die when you change brands of brass, you might get this trick to work, but I still wouldn't trust it.

When die manufacturers produce the sizing dies, they need to make a die that will squeeze even the thinnest brass enough so that it holds a bullet. This means that thicker brass will be squeezed down too much, which is OK because the expander die re-widens the top of the case the right amount for the bullet diameter. This results in a case that looks bulged at the top. The fact that the 9mm is a tapered case and the die is straight just adds to the effect. For the record, Dillon dies cause the worst bulge, while RCBS seems to produce the least.

Factory ammo doesn't look like this because factory ammo is not produced the way we make reloads. There's no sizing or conventional expander dies used to make factory ammo because the factories order/make the brass the correct size right from the start.

If you measure a round of factory ammo at the case mouth, halfway down the body, and at the base, then shoot it, reload it, and measure it again, you'll find that the top isn't bulged, but the middle is squished in.

Don't try to correct it. Like Gerry said, if the rounds chamber, just shoot them.

Super Glue?

 

[Out of Battery Firearms]

I've had bulging 9mm bullets issues, came down to my bullet choice, found bullets with imperfect bases like some plated bullets, where the side rounds down to the bottom to be my culprit, changed bullets, problem went to 1% or less.

 

[swampy]

Experiment with your lead mixture next time you cast. The TL molds claim sizing isn't likely needed but not always. Bullet diameter can usually be manipulated with adjustments to the alloy composition .

 

[Point&Shoot]

I think there were a couple issues. I was using range lead and added nothing to it. I figured it was already what I wanted. Then someone informed me that jacketed bullets have a soft lead under the jacket. I also did not have a thermometer for my 20lb pot so I was just winging it.
As I read your responses I figured I would open the bell just a tad so the bullets sat just a bit deeper into the case. I dont know why but it really reduced the bulge.
As far as function they work just fine in six 9mm handguns. I didn't kerplunk all the chambers but they drop right in to a Dillon case gauge.
I guess if they function I'll use them just to avoid resizing a half ton of completed bullets. You know... With a six gang mold you can produce a lot of bullets in a very short time. I wish the whole process of reloading went that quickly. TY

 

[mac1911]

I think there were a couple issues. I was using range lead and added nothing to it. I figured it was already what I wanted. Then someone informed me that jacketed bullets have a soft lead under the jacket. I also did not have a thermometer for my 20lb pot so I was just winging it.
As I read your responses I figured I would open the bell just a tad so the bullets sat just a bit deeper into the case. I dont know why but it really reduced the bulge.
As far as function they work just fine in six 9mm handguns. I didn't kerplunk all the chambers but they drop right in to a Dillon case gauge.
I guess if they function I'll use them just to avoid resizing a half ton of completed bullets. You know... With a six gang mold you can produce a lot of bullets in a very short time. I wish the whole process of reloading went that quickly. TY

Thermometer is good to have knowing your lead temp will help with making sure you repeat good results.

I think for the most part you will see a larger shift in dropped bullet size from alloy temp vs alloy itself.
We have no idea what range scrap is for alloy. Depend on what you pull out. If you had 90% plus jacketed in your smelting pot its a good chance its closer to pure soft lead.
Some alloys will "grow" with age but where talking more like .000X .

In the end I would be happy with a mold that drops slightly larger.

What weight are bullets dropping at.

 

[Point&Shoot]

The average weight over 10 bullets is 1.260 with a high of 128.1 and a low of 124.2. Is that to much difference in weights with my Lee .356 TL mold? The lead was from a very old range where jacketed ammo was not allowed but there were a few folks believe it or not that did use them. I just figured that most of the lead came from cast lead bullets so that it would be very close to what was desirable.
I will have to look into how to determine how much zinc or wheel weights I need to add to achieve what hardness. I also have to figure out how to test hardness.
The rounds function just fine but that little bulge just doesn't look right. I knew I should have been using a thermometer but money was tight after buying the Dillon 550B so I did without.
Thanks for the help and input guys but questions asked and answered always leads to more questions so I'll be working on those.

 

[pastera]

Don't add zinc!
If you need hardness you want to add antimony. Add type metal (mono, foundry, lino, etc) to add both tin and antimony.

If you aren't getting clean, sharp edges once up to temperature, you need to add tin. Add 700 grains (45 grams) per 10 lbs to raise tin by 1%.
You really don't need a lot of tin to get good fill out. Lead free plumbing solder is an easy source.

If most of the bullets were cast, you probably have very close to the right hardness unless you are pushing the limit on speed.

 

[mac1911]

The average weight over 10 bullets is 1.260 with a high of 128.1 and a low of 124.2. Is that to much difference in weights with my Lee .356 TL mold? The lead was from a very old range where jacketed ammo was not allowed but there were a few folks believe it or not that did use them. I just figured that most of the lead came from cast lead bullets so that it would be very close to what was desirable.
I will have to look into how to determine how much zinc or wheel weights I need to add to achieve what hardness. I also have to figure out how to test hardness.
The rounds function just fine but that little bulge just doesn't look right. I knew I should have been using a thermometer but money was tight after buying the Dillon 550B so I did without.
Thanks for the help and input guys but questions asked and answered always leads to more questions so I'll be working on those.

There's generally nothing unanswered here
Glen E. Fryxell, Cast bullets and firearm information and history
You could probably get that range of weight with alloy and mold casting temps.
Also did you mix all of this alloy from the range into one big pot? If not you could have changes in alloy content with each pot you smelt down.
I would not worry about alloy for the moment . read through the above link no and again and try small steps
1. Get a thermometer. A must ? No, although its good to have something to gauge on.
2. Alloy - to hard is more likely to cause problems. SIZE is more concern to a avoid leading.
3. Its to bad you casted 90lbs or so before checking this stuff.
Been there myself.
4. You can buy a known clean alloy from a few vendors IIRC Lee molds are based on Lyman #2 alloy.

 

[Point&Shoot]

Thanks Mac and pastera. More good info. I will have to check out that link. Maybe it will give me a better grasp on alloys and hardness. Well I guess I should go online and get a thermometer. As far as melting my range scrap I have a big fire extinguisher pot rigged up to sit on a table.. its coal fired but I use an air compressor to blast air thru the coal. I have melted a couple of heavy files with this set up. It's scary hot. I just dumped a half bucket of range scrap in the pot and fled the scene for a half hour to burn out any contaminants and then scooped of the cross. It was just a random mix. I have no problems with melting down bullets already cast because you can make so many in a short time.. out with wife and she says put your phone away so I had better. Thanks

 

[pastera]

I haven't tried it but it looks like you can estimate hardness with artists pencils: $7-$10 will get you in the ball park.

Testing hardness with pencils - Page 2
Testing hardness with pencils - Page 11

 

[Clumber32]

I would push them all through a Lee resizer. And for the rounds that you've already loaded, send them through a Lee Factory Crimp Die. That's if they won't chamber correctly.