Carrying my PERMIT.. when?

[MisterHappy]

I once used my Bartender's License (Yes, really) at Fenway to get a beer.

Though technically not a "valid" ID, as it's issued by the town, not state, it worked due to professional courtesy. That and I thanked the beer lady for chargng $8.25 for a Bud.

"Why would you say that?"

"Now, when I charge $4.50, and people think it's too much, I can say it's a bargain!"

 

[dcmdon]

One might think . . .

But I witnessed a clerk and supervisor in a very large retail store refuse a US Passport as ID for a person who was attempting to use Amex Travelers Checks to pay for some goods. They claimed it wasn't a "valid ID"! Obviously they didn't get out much.

I've also heard stories of US Passports being refused by various gov't entities but those are only rumors to me.

I'm big on "avoiding conflict" so I advocate carrying a DL if you are driving, carrying the appropriate LTC/PP/CCW if in possession of firearms, at all times.

I'm less interested in avoiding conflict, however, I think its reasonable to carry a license for whatever activity you are participating.

Carrying a handgun in CT, means a PP. Being in possession of any firearm in MA means a LTC or FID.

I chafe at the expectation by people, LE included that we all always carry ID. If I go out and am not driving, I make a point to not bring my DL. If I'm not drinking, driving, or carrying, I don't bring any ID whatsoever. (Like a trip via the T into boston with the kids)

As far as IDs with guns go, I've got 2 first hand situations, both from CT. In one case I was shooting on public land that I thought it was legal to shoot on. It wasn't. I was in the wrong. A conservation officer rolled up on us and politely told us that it was illegal to shoot on the public land we were on. No drama, no theatrics, no threats. We had several handguns out, which we placed on the table open and empty when we saw his truck first approaching. Then we stepped away from the table. He told me he saw what we did and appreciated it. Then he asked to see my PP. I reached into my pocket and came up empty. I had left it and all my CCs and cash at home on my nighstand. He had a legitimate reason to request the PP and I couldn't produce it. Now he had a legitimate reason to arrest me. I offered and he took my cars registration, then confirmed that my PP was valid. Then he tried to get access to a photo of me that showed I was who I said I was. This entire time he was polite and professional. In the end, my wife ended up texting me a photo of my PP which I showed to the officer.

In the end he gave me a ticket only for failing to carry my PP, an infraction, like a speeding ticket. Which is required by statute in CT.
As he got into his truck he told me that if I went to court with my PP they would nolle it.

Now lets contrast this with what happened while shooting on a friends private property. We were shooting MGs and rifles only. No handguns means no requirement for a PP. A local Deep River cop and a CT trooper came walking in with their hands on their guns. The trooper was pretty calm but did little to stop the Deep River cop who was out of line. The trooper asked my friend if it was his property. My friend replied Yes. At that point the encounter should have ended and they should have left. Instead the DR cop aggressively demanded ID. I refused. He then demanded to see "the paperwork" to my MG. I refused, I'm only required to show it to an ATF agent if requested. I wa spissed and was only going to cooperate as much as I was required to do so by law.

At this point I suggested to them that since they had established that we were on the property legally, they had lost their right to be on the property in question, and then asked my friend to ask them to leave, which he did.
The DR cop pushed us for ID again and we both refused. Then they left.

Overall, I've found that Conservation Officers are much easier to deal with. I think its because they work with hunters every day and don't necessarily see the presence of a firearm as something that needs to be justified or explained.

With all that said, I've recognized that keeping and bearing arms in MA is not a right. Its a privilege granted to us at the pleasure of the CLEO in our town. So unfortunately, I'd never attempt such a thing in MA.

Sad but true.

Don

 

[Len-2A Training]

Don,

I chafe at the expectation by people, LE included that we all always carry ID. If I go out and am not driving, I make a point to not bring my DL. If I'm not drinking, driving, or carrying, I don't bring any ID whatsoever. (Like a trip via the T into boston with the kids)

Leaving all gun issues aside, I think it unwise to NOT carry ID at all times outside your house. Here's why I think this:

- A co-worker and friend used to bicycle a lot. Unfortunately one day he was found in the brush off the side of the road, dead. He was relatively young (IIRC late 30s, early 40s and they determined that it was a sudden heart attack) and I don't think he had any ID on him which complicated contacting his Wife.

- My Father had a witnessed heart attack at home, he called 911 and had the attack as the EMTs were at the house. A well-meaning neighbor took his wallet (and gave it to me the next morning) as they carted him off to the hospital and then he called me. I called the hospital but otherwise they had no way to contact me and had no knowledge of his diabetes (his Medic-Alert card was in his wallet . . . but had seriously outdated info on it) which might have made a difference in how they treated him (we'll never know, as he didn't make it).

As much as I hate the "papers please" gov't attitude, if something untoward happens and you/I are unable to communicate who we are, I'd want those trying to help/save us to be able to ID us so they could attempt to contact next of kin for any info needed for treatment or where to find the body!

 

[dcmdon]

Len, I forgot to mention that while I don't carry ID, I always carry a credit card and my insurance card with me. The ins card has a label on it that says in case of emergency, then wife's name and cell phone number.

I've thought about that. I don't want emergency services withheld or get myself transferred to a crappy hospital just because I don't have proof of insurance. In my mind, carrying an insurance card is the only card to carry if you are only going to carry one.

 

[FreeWillie]

Hey folks. I am not even sure how to search for this answer with out getting too many unrelated answers.

But the question is fairly easy. And I ask this from a legal standpoint, not from the "is it a good idea" standpoint.

When do I need to have my -permit- card with me? Is the answer to the law "whenever I have a firearm" on/with/near me?
I ask the question in this regard: I do certain activities that occasionally it's convienent to have a gun, but not a wallet (hiking for example).

Make believe I am out hiking during hunting season (it happens) and a friendly green suited guy stops me for a chat and notices the gun (I said -make believe- that he's friendly ) and chooses to ask for a permit. Am I required to have one assuming I am off my property?


Thanks!

http://www.orvis.com/store/product.aspx?pf_id=89lg



They last forever. I've had mine 20 years and it still looks great.

To avoid being detained I would be carrying the permit. Plus what LenS said.

 

[sweetjeep]

To the OP.

I've got a couple of asides since your legal question has been well answered by terraformer, Rob and 50.

1) Unless you are wearing a Speedo or going naked, there's no reason not to bring it. do what I do. Stick some cash, your LTC, and a credit card in the front pocket of your pants. You won't even know its there.

Like I said, it's not likely to happen. However- I have some awfully small guns including (2) Kel-tec Pf9s and a P3at. If I go work on my property I am likely to just jamb the gun in a neoprene waistband holster and wear a pair of shorts or windpants that don't have pockets. Plus if I am working on my own property why bring my wallet? It's one more thing to lose. Gee, now I'm done working and I go for a hike. The property is on the edge of several thousand acres of town/state forest. It's also quite likely that a the friendly ELE/EPO/whatever has decided that I am not on my property when, in fact I am.

Second possibility - I am out 4 wheeling/dirt bike riding. I don't bring my wallet but occasionally I bring guns.

Third - How about I am out hunting and I lost my wallet that had the ID in it? Same result.

What if I am out at the store and I forget it on the counter? Or in the car and I'm at the mall? There is a ton of reasons it could happen. I just chose one that I find likely to happen to me.

 

[drgrant]

You know, my girl once tried to use her RFID at Kappy's when she forgot her license while out with her friend. They denied her and she couldn't understand that they would deny it even with fingerprints on the back. Of course it's private property and their rules so I guess she lost. I should have told her then that she and MA had a long dark road ahead.

They deny it because MGL allows some liability protection for alcohol vendors- but ONLY given certain kinds of ID are accepted. An LTC/FID is not on this list so this is why many liquor stores turn people away or are reluctant to sell to people not bearing IDs that are on the list.

-Mike

 

[dcmdon]

Jeep,

your initial post asked about the law. Not about the advisability.
I think you've got all the info you need. Obviously, your risk tolerance is up to you.

If you want to dream up scenarios about accidentally leaving your wallet on the counter at a store, then thats up to you. Have at it.

I think this ones pretty well worn out.

Mods??

 

[Rob Boudrie]

They deny it because MGL allows some liability protection for alcohol vendors- but ONLY given certain kinds of ID are accepted.

True. The fact that a MA driver's license or liquor ID was a reasonable forgery or a reasonable person would conclude the photo on a legit ID held by the wrong person is a "match" is a defense to an change of serving underage, however, with other id's the offense is absolute - no matter how good the forgery, if the buyer is actually underage, the seller is guilty.

 

[rogzballz]

Of course! You never know when you're going to stop by an FFL and buy something =)

 

[pastera]

Carry an ID

My cousin was just recently hit by a truck while on his bicycle - no ID meant days before any family knew what happened

He is doing better after a 7 hour surgery to put his pelvis back together

 

[dcmdon]

Carry an ID

My cousin was just recently hit by a truck while on his bicycle - no ID meant days before any family knew what happened

He is doing better after a 7 hour surgery to put his pelvis back together

This scenario seems to be the only real reason to carry an id when you are not driving or carrying a firearm.
If you have your ins card with you, you kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[NTMAREMACH]

My brother who is 58 was riding his pedal bike and took a turn off onto an old road and ended up behind the Gardner State Prison off Rte 140. Once he approached the prison wall with the barbed wire fencing he knew he better get the hell out of there. OH NO, to late they seen him. About 6 guards came running up asking what he was doing there. Asked if he was taking pictures and asked to check him over. Then they asked what he had in that little saddle bag. Yep he had his 357 revolver in there and let them know right off. The only problem is he didn't have his license on him. Once the word gun came out there was a gun one of the officers grabbed his radio and asked for armed backup. About 6 more with full armor and weapons came running out. Anyway he was detained for about 2.5 hours and had to retrieve his weapon from the Gardner Police Dept. The Chief said he hadn't done anything wrong and not having his license on him didn't get him in any trouble if you don't mind the search and the delay you'll be facing.

 

[sweetjeep]

Jeep,

your initial post asked about the law. Not about the advisability.
I think you've got all the info you need. Obviously, your risk tolerance is up to you.

If you want to dream up scenarios about accidentally leaving your wallet on the counter at a store, then thats up to you. Have at it.

I think this ones pretty well worn out.

Mods??

I agree, I got the information I needed. As for "dreaming things up", I have done each and every one of these things in the past. How do you think I generated the interest in this question?!

 

[dcmdon]

I agree, I got the information I needed. As for "dreaming things up", I have done each and every one of these things in the past. How do you think I generated the interest in this question?!

You have not left your wallet on the counter of a store on the same day you were arrested or detained by the police and were carrying a handgun. It only matters if you were arrested or detained.

If you figure that your chance of leaving your wallet on the counter on any given day is 1 in 365 (so you do it once per year)

If you figure that your chance of being arrested on any given day is 1 in 3650 or once in 10 years

If you carry a handgun 1 out of every 2 days

Then the chance of getting arrested on a day you forget your wallet and are carrying is 1 in 2,664,500.

I've been very generous in my statistics. I'm guessing you forget yoru wallet on the counter less often than once a year and that you are arrested or detained less than once every 10 years.

So if anything, I'm being conservative. In summary, on any given day you have a 1 in 2.6 million chance of having both of those things happen.
I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Isn't math fun.

 

[ochmude]

You forgot to account for leap year .

 

[Realtor MA]

If you figure that your chance of being arrested on any given day is 1 in 3650 or once in 10 years

Really? Because earlier in this thread he was assured that if he was found by a LEO to have a gun and no LTC on his person he would be arrested. Furthermore if you read the NES threads you would know that if you print and are found out you will be arrested. Also, if you didn't lock your ammo up at home and you need to call for an ambulance you will be arrested. Oh boy. I could go on and on. I've seen so many threads I'm guessing that his chances of being arrested are more like 'twice a day'.
sorry couldn't help myself Sarcasm, kidding and having fun at the same time.

 

[dcmdon]

Really? Because earlier in this thread he was assured that if he was found by a LEO to have a gun and no LTC on his person he would be arrested. Furthermore if you read the NES threads you would know that if you print and are found out you will be arrested. Also, if you didn't lock your ammo up at home and you need to call for an ambulance you will be arrested. Oh boy. I could go on and on. I've seen so many threads I'm guessing that his chances of being arrested are more like 'twice a day'.
sorry couldn't help myself Sarcasm, kidding and having fun at the same time.

You are missing a basic concept here. I'm not saying that there aren't serious consiquences. I'm responding to a ridiculous scenario posited by the OP. Namely that on the very day he forgets his LTC on the conter of a convenience store he is carrying and happens to be arrested or detained, or lets say "made" just to simplify the assumptions.

I'm not talking about leaving your LTC at home every day. I'm talking about carrying the LTC all the time, except in the OPs scenario he leaves it on the counter of a convenience store.

Don

 

[waltherlover]

Also, if you didn't lock your ammo up at home and you need to call for an ambulance you will be arrested.

Incorrect, ammunition storage is a fire regulation, not an arrestable offense. You can get cited for it by the fire chief. You might get arrested, but if you do, that's your lottery ticket for a false arrest suit. When they get back to the station and realize there is no law on the books authorizing your arrest, they will be surprisingly friendly - doesn't matter, they took you into police custody without cause.

They might decide to pull your permit for "suitability" reasons as well depending on how much of a dick the chief/command staff are.

 

[ochmude]

Did you guys miss the part where Realtor said he was kidding?

 

[waltherlover]

I missed it, so it's likely someone else could and then have bad info regarding the actual laws......

There's no law on the books for printing, either....but - it's likely if the po-po get called, they will call your issuing authority and they will pull your permit for suitability reasons....

 

[sixer]

Like I said, it's not likely to happen. However- I have some awfully small guns including (2) Kel-tec Pf9s and a P3at. If I go work on my property I am likely to just jamb the gun in a neoprene waistband holster and wear a pair of shorts or windpants that don't have pockets. Plus if I am working on my own property why bring my wallet? It's one more thing to lose. Gee, now I'm done working and I go for a hike. The property is on the edge of several thousand acres of town/state forest. It's also quite likely that a the friendly ELE/EPO/whatever has decided that I am not on my property when, in fact I am.

Second possibility - I am out 4 wheeling/dirt bike riding. I don't bring my wallet but occasionally I bring guns.

Third - How about I am out hunting and I lost my wallet that had the ID in it? Same result.

What if I am out at the store and I forget it on the counter? Or in the car and I'm at the mall? There is a ton of reasons it could happen. I just chose one that I find likely to happen to me.

FYI: Illegal to ride ATV with loaded/unlocked firearm in MA.

Carrying of a firearm, rifle or shotgun in or on a recreation vehicle or on a trailer or sled attached, unless the firearm in unloaded and in an enclosed case.

http://www.mass.gov/dcr/recreate/orv.htm

 

[sweetjeep]

FYI: Illegal to ride ATV with loaded/unlocked firearm in MA.

http://www.mass.gov/dcr/recreate/orv.htm

Yep. But thanks for bringing it up. It's also almost illegal to ride in Massachusetts.

 

[dcmdon]

Incorrect, ammunition storage is a fire regulation, not an arrestable offense. You can get cited for it by the fire chief. You might get arrested, but if you do, that's your lottery ticket for a false arrest suit. When they get back to the station and realize there is no law on the books authorizing your arrest, they will be surprisingly friendly - doesn't matter, they took you into police custody without cause.

They might decide to pull your permit for "suitability" reasons as well depending on how much of a dick the chief/command staff are.

Tell that to the guy in Lowell.

- - - Updated - - -

FYI: Illegal to ride ATV with loaded/unlocked firearm in MA.


http://www.mass.gov/dcr/recreate/orv.htm

Wrong. That only applies to DCR land.

 

[MisterHappy]

Tell that to the guy in Lowell.

- - - Updated - - -



Wrong. That only applies to DCR land.

Ah.....can you provide a cite for that? The regs that are on the linked page don't specify DCR land - in fact, all the regs have words like "All" and "No".

 

[tphelon10]

Ah.....can you provide a cite for that? The regs that are on the linked page don't specify DCR land - in fact, all the regs have words like "All" and "No".

Your right, this is from the Environmental Police website.
http://www.mass.gov/eea/grants-and-...recreation-vehicle-safety-bureau/323cmr30.pdf

 

[waltherlover]

Tell that to the guy in Lowell.

The guy in Lowell (as I recall) - they wanted to jam him up. As I recall he was charged with illegal ammunition manufacturing or some such crap - because he had reloading stuff. There are people here that know more about that case than I do.

 

[SkuaSeptember]

Besides the issue of carrying your permit or not you might want to take a better look at the regulations concerning hunting prohibitions.

Possession of rifles, handguns, or dogs in any woodland or field, or use of same on any game, is prohibited during the shotgun deer season except that the use of dogs is lawful for hunting waterfowl on coastal waters
Rifles chambered to take ammunition larger than .22 caliber long rifle rimfire,and pistols and revolvers chambered to take ammunition larger than .38 caliber, between the hours of ½ hour after sunset and ½ hour before sunrise.

 

[garandman]

/Make believe I am out hiking during hunting season (it happens) and a friendly green suited guy stops me for a chat and notices the gun (I said -make believe- that he's friendly ) and chooses to ask for a permit. Am I required to have one assuming I am off my property? /

The activity is not so strenuous that you can carry a firearm but so strenuous you can't card a plastic card? Doesn't make sense to me.