• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Carl Sagan's Baloney Detector and Anti Gun Arguments

vickers

NES Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
1,106
Likes
805
Location
Rockingham County, NH
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
I stumbled on this today and thought it was interesting. This was written by Carl Sagan in the book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark published a short while before his death.


https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/ It's not a long article but my summarization follows...


He outlines several examples of invalid arguments or strategies that are red flags that Baloney is afoot. I think the anti gun crowd uses many if not all of these in their attacks on the second amendment, hunting and general gun ownership. My take on these are in the parens.


- ad hominem attack (attacking the arguer not the argument)
- argument from authority (the "because I am an expert/politician/celebrity and I say so" argument)
- argument from adverse consequences (You have to do SOMETHING because otherwise bad things will happen)
- appeal to ignorance (if it hasn't been proven false, it must be true or vice versa)
- special pleading (if you point out a logical inconsistency the response is "You don't understand/appreciate <something>...)
- assuming the answer (kind of a causation vs.correlation argument. If this is true, this <thing i claim> must be true.)
- observational selection (cherry picking examples or data favorable to your argument)
- statistics of small numbers
- misunderstanding the nature of statistics (both of these deal with misunderstanding and/or cherry picking statistical analysis)
- inconsistency (penny wise, pound foolish. reacting differently to similar issues or events depending on ideology/agenda)
- non sequitur (disconnects in logic)
- post hoc, ergo propter hoc (causation vs. correlation)
- meaningless question (unanswerable question designed to confuse the argument)
- false dichotomy (consider extremes but ignore the possibility of other or more likely realities or outcomes)
- short term vs. long term (failure to consider all options/effects over time)
- slippery slope (exaggerated if...Then arguments)
- confusion of correlation vs. causation (observation of one truth pattern doesn't mean that truth applies in all cases)
- straw man (building a false premise in order to tear it down)
- suppressed evidence (missing details, half truths, statistics without full context)
- weasel words (intentionally misleading names or words used to confuse or hide the real intent)


In response to those, he outlines some tests which help you uncovering BS.


- Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the “facts.”
- Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
- Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.
- Spin more than one hypothesis. If there’s something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives.
- Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it’s yours. It’s only a way station in the pursuit of knowledge. Ask yourself why you like the idea. Compare it fairly with the alternatives. See if you can find reasons for rejecting it. If you don’t, others will.
- If whatever it is you’re explaining has some measure, some numerical quantity attached to it, you’ll be much better able to discriminate among competing hypotheses. What is vague and qualitative is open to many explanations.
- If there’s a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) — not just most of them.
- Occam’s Razor. This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler. Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified…. You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result.
 
Great post even though I'm poking at it.

Those aren't Carl Sagan's invention, they're basic logical fallacies.

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/

The whole of the political conversation in the U.S. has become ad hominem. The arguments and facts on one side of the issue or the other don't make any difference anymore - it's just about undermining your opponent's credibility.

- Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the “facts.”

There is enough complexity in the system of science/research these days that facts are now regarded as relative and every source is regarded as untrustworthy. That's one reason why people go for the integrity of the source before even considering the argument.

- Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.

LOL. Everyone has their point of view now and views any other point of view as a threat to their entire way of life.

- Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.

Your political party is basically your religion now. You can more or less predict how someone thinks about any given issue just by finding out who they vote for.

- Spin more than one hypothesis. If there’s something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives.

LOL again. The only hypothesis worth considering is the one supported by your politicians, or which is favorable to your personal interests. Everything else is an attempt to undermine you and everything you believe in.

- Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it’s yours. It’s only a way station in the pursuit of knowledge. Ask yourself why you like the idea. Compare it fairly with the alternatives. See if you can find reasons for rejecting it. If you don’t, others will.

People no longer believe that anyone is interested in knowing the truth about things. The only motivation for people is to support their deeply held and irrevocable political ideology, no matter how badly it impacts their personal integrity.

- If whatever it is you’re explaining has some measure, some numerical quantity attached to it, you’ll be much better able to discriminate among competing hypotheses. What is vague and qualitative is open to many explanations.


Again secondary to ideology. Modern Sporting Rifles are only used in a tiny minority of crimes? Who cares, they look scary and are used in war. Hillary Clinton said so.

- Occam’s Razor. This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler. Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified…. You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result.

This is another one that is laughable in today's world. People look for exactly the opposite. Everything is a massive, complex conspiracy by the other side to oppress them. Never mind the millions of responsible gun owners that own MSRs, it's all a conspiracy by, "the gun lobby" to sell death.
 
Last edited:
Great post even though I'm poking at it.

Those aren't Carl Sagan's invention, they're basic logical fallacies.

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/

The whole of the political conversation in the U.S. has become ad hominem. The arguments and facts on one side of the issue or the other don't make any difference anymore - it's just about undermining your opponent's credibility.....

Love it, thanks for your analysis!
 
Part of a problem with dealing with antis is trying to sell the basic premise (that most of us here freely agree with, and innately know) that self defense is a human right, and people who seek to take a basic tool/vehicle of that away - as being major league shitbirds, is difficult thing to pull off.

None of the stats or any of that stuff actually matter once that's out there, the problem is that most do not understand it. So we're reduced to toddler talk about having to try to explain to nippleheads about the facts of most criminal violence; eg, that most of it comes from gangs and drugs, and even many of the victims, well, they're not truly innocent random victims, but usually part of the problem that set up the violent event to begin with. Or trying to explain to people that guns don't inherently "make people violent", and other basic concepts.

-Mike
 
Last edited:
Part of a problem with dealing with antis is trying to sell the basic premise (that most of us here freely agree with, and innately know) that self defense is a human right, and people who seek to take a basic tool/vehicle of that away - as being major league shitbirds, is difficult thing to pull off.

None of the stats or any of that stuff actually matter once that's out there, the problem is that most do not understand it. So we're reduced to toddler talk about having to try to explain to nippleheads about the facts of most criminal violence; eg, that most of it comes from gangs and drugs, and even many of the victims, well, they're not truly innocent random victims, but usually part of the problem that set up the violent event to begin with. Or trying to explain to people that guns don't
inherently "make people violent", and other basic concepts.

-Mike

I read something recently that they have found that most of the violent crime, really bad drug related stuff, gang and gun stuff etc. is caused by a relatively very small number (few hundred) of people in each of the major inner cities. So the premise is that if you could reach those few hundred young kids who are in that group and some of the younger kids who are likely to turn out that way you could really make meaningful inroads into reversing the violence in inner cities. Apparently there's an intervention program that has been used which has turned out to be more affective than all the gun bans, anti drug laws and all that but you hear almost nothing about it from politicians. In fact, that program reportedly has been used in Boston and is considered the real reason why violence has dropped in Boston as opposed to all the statist shit the mass Pols and AG tout as being responsible for the aleged lowering crime in Boston.
 
Last edited:
I'm with you. I think these are the smart kids.

Ya, but if you hang out with the smart kids you are bound to learn something. Ad hominem, non sequiter, false dichotomy, I've heard these terms many times, and now thanks to Vickers post, I know what they mean.
 
Reverse order for me, but yes.

If Feynman were still alive he would eviscerate most of the sciencey claptrap and dogma that passes for science today.

Which is why they had him taken out before they started any "climate change" discussion.
 
LOL.

Aaaaand the dummy brigade has arrived. We certainly couldn't have a thread about logic go on for too long.

Which reputable scientist was saying climate change wasn't real again?
 
LOL.

Aaaaand the dummy brigade has arrived. We certainly couldn't have a thread about logic go on for too long.

Which reputable scientist was saying climate change wasn't real again?
******
The climate always changes, it's the amount that we contribute to it that is the contention and what we can do about. Hmm, just went out for my 2 mile walk, windy and sunny to start and then calm and overcast by the end.
 
"LOL.

Aaaaand the dummy brigade has arrived. We certainly couldn't have a thread about logic go on for too long.

Which reputable scientist was saying climate change wasn't real again? "
********
"In early October, a long-time member of APS, Hal Lewis, publicly resigned from the Society over issues having to do with climate change. Lewis, who is an emeritus professor at UC Santa Barbara, addressed his letter of resignation to APS President Curtis Callan, simultaneously circulating it on the Internet. In response to some of the points in Lewis’s letter, APS issued a statement that can be found on the press-release page of the APS website. Callan also sent a personal reply to Lewis in which he expressed his regret at Lewis’s decision, along with his strong disagreement with the substance of Lewis’s complaints against the APS.

Lewis’s specific complaints focus on the recent decisions of the APS Council concerning the 2007 Statement on Climate Change and the ongoing process of formation of a topical group on the physics of climate. Characterizing recent APS decisions, Lewis contends that “It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.” Concerning the topical group, Lewis claimed that the petition for creating such a group which he had signed had been arbitrarily rejected by “APS HQ”."
https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201011/memberresigns.cfm
*********
"In the world of climate science, the skeptics are coming in from the cold.

Researchers who see global warming as something less than a planet-ending calamity believe the incoming Trump administration may allow their views to be developed and heard. This didn’t happen under the Obama administration, which denied that a debate even existed. Now, some scientists say, a more inclusive approach – and the billions of federal dollars that might support it – could be in the offing.

“Here’s to hoping the Age of Trump will herald the demise of climate change dogma, and acceptance of a broader range of perspectives in climate science and our policy options,” Georgia Tech scientist Judith Curry wrote this month at her popular Climate Etc. blog.

William Happer, professor emeritus of physics at Princeton University and a member of the National Academy of Sciences, is similarly optimistic. “I think we’re making progress,” Happer said. “I see reassuring signs.”
http://www.realclearinvestigations....imate_scientists_coming_in_from_the_cold.html
 
"In early October, a long-time member of APS, Hal Lewis, publicly resigned from the Society over issues having to do with climate change. Lewis, who is an emeritus professor at UC Santa Barbara, addressed his letter of resignation to APS President Curtis Callan, simultaneously circulating it on the Internet. In response to some of the points in Lewis’s letter, APS issued a statement that can be found on the press-release page of the APS website. Callan also sent a personal reply to Lewis in which he expressed his regret at Lewis’s decision, along with his strong disagreement with the substance of Lewis’s complaints against the APS.

Lewis’s specific complaints focus on the recent decisions of the APS Council concerning the 2007 Statement on Climate Change and the ongoing process of formation of a topical group on the physics of climate. Characterizing recent APS decisions, Lewis contends that “It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.” Concerning the topical group, Lewis claimed that the petition for creating such a group which he had signed had been arbitrarily rejected by “APS HQ”."
https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201011/memberresigns.cfm
*********
"In the world of climate science, the skeptics are coming in from the cold.

Researchers who see global warming as something less than a planet-ending calamity believe the incoming Trump administration may allow their views to be developed and heard. This didn’t happen under the Obama administration, which denied that a debate even existed. Now, some scientists say, a more inclusive approach – and the billions of federal dollars that might support it – could be in the offing.

“Here’s to hoping the Age of Trump will herald the demise of climate change dogma, and acceptance of a broader range of perspectives in climate science and our policy options,” Georgia Tech scientist Judith Curry wrote this month at her popular Climate Etc. blog.

William Happer, professor emeritus of physics at Princeton University and a member of the National Academy of Sciences, is similarly optimistic. “I think we’re making progress,” Happer said. “I see reassuring signs.”
http://www.realclearinvestigations....imate_scientists_coming_in_from_the_cold.html

As usual, the reasonable debate over the scale of the impact of global warming and what and how much we can do to avert it is misrepresented as debate over whether it is happening at all and whether humans are contributing to it.

http://corporate.exxonmobil.com/en/current-issues/climate-policy/climate-perspectives/our-position
 
As usual, the reasonable debate over the scale of the impact of global warming and what and how much we can do to avert it is misrepresented as debate over whether it is happening at all and whether humans are contributing to it.

http://corporate.exxonmobil.com/en/current-issues/climate-policy/climate-perspectives/our-position
********
Corporate spin to appease the true believers. The point is no one knows and the radical left wants radical policies that would crush the economy for a debatable effect. So you support Maura and the NY AG on their Exxon/Mobil fishing expedition?
 
If the Left's version of Global Wharming is correct, there isn't s-word we can do about it short of a mass extinctive event. So I don't get the whole "let's save 3cf of carbon dioxide a year for $45,000!" stuff.

By all the supposed models, if WE are doing this, there is NOTHING we can do to stop it.

On a related note: There is about as much tonnage of beef cattle in the US as there were tonnage of bison before the White Dewds showed up. I always love that little factoid. "It's all the cow-farts that are harming the environment!" What about buffalo-squirts????
 
I'm 61 yrs. and the environment is a hell of a lot cleaner than when I was a kid. Boston Harbor and the Charles River were open sewers for human waste and toxic runoff from manufacturing companies. A field down the street from my house was declared a Superfund cleanup site because of PCP's dumped there from an electronics firm. We used to fish in a pond behind a tannery. We never saw deer, turkeys, and other wildlife like we see today. There are more trees in Ma. than there were 200 yrs ago. Cars no longer run on leaded fuel and belch the pollutants that they did back in the 60's and get 2-3 times the gas mileage. I am firmly confident man will not destroy the environment and in 20-30 years the internal combustion engine will be a thing of the past and Americans will be transported in driver less electric cars. My son-in-law, an engineer w/a Phd. is working on a process to recycle the lithium/cad battery's that will power the next generation of automobiles. The sky is not falling.
 
If the Left's version of Global Wharming is correct, there isn't s-word we can do about it short of a mass extinctive event. So I don't get the whole "let's save 3cf of carbon dioxide a year for $45,000!" stuff.

By all the supposed models, if WE are doing this, there is NOTHING we can do to stop it.

Yea, the effectiveness of the libs policies is a completely different matter. It's conspicuous that they never seem to want to touch the industries that are contributing the most to the problem and/or paying them the most money.

I really only read up on this stuff when someone posts something sufficiently thoughtful that I feel the need to refute or understand it but the rhetoric, at least, seems to flow the way you say in that reducing our emissions probably won't stop anything. It may reduce the magnitude and its a good idea for other unrelated reasons, but yea.

Like most problems we face, I tend to think that there will be a technological or engineering based solution. Between the fluctuation in oil prices, organizations like the DoD seeking solutions like solar for their own unrelated reasons, the many fantastic security and economic reasons to create a more distributed power grid, the economic drivers for entities like shipping companies to have more efficient ships, China's problems with polution, etc. other forms of energy production are going to become more prevalent. It won't be enough, but it will probably create a gap which can be filled by technology. The ethics and risk assessment for geoengineering on that scale are a cool topic.

What's funny to me...well, funny until our taxes go up even more...is that the politics around this issue are spilling over and enabling retardation in other areas. There is just zero regard for common sense when it comes to things like federal flood insurance (yet another business the government shouldn't be in.) You've got people building condos in Miami on streets that are having flooding issues when there isn't even a storm. The political ass-puckering around global warming means that half the country doesn't want to admit that's a stupid thing to do because it might imply they believe in science. The taxpayers will be the ones who wind up paying for that stupidity but god forbid any republican acknowledges its a dumb thing to do.
 
I'm 61 yrs. and the environment is a hell of a lot cleaner than when I was a kid. Boston Harbor and the Charles River were open sewers for human waste and toxic runoff from manufacturing companies. A field down the street from my house was declared a Superfund cleanup site because of PCP's dumped there from an electronics firm. We used to fish in a pond behind a tannery. We never saw deer, turkeys, and other wildlife like we see today. There are more trees in Ma. than there were 200 yrs ago. Cars no longer run on leaded fuel and belch the pollutants that they did back in the 60's and get 2-3 times the gas mileage. I am firmly confident man will not destroy the environment and in 20-30 years the internal combustion engine will be a thing of the past and Americans will be transported in driver less electric cars. My son-in-law, an engineer w/a Phd. is working on a process to recycle the lithium/cad battery's that will power the next generation of automobiles. The sky is not falling.

Much more reasonable statement with which I do not necessarily disagree. I tend to think we will, "figure it out" as well.

I worked on the harbor when they were still dumping raw sewage into it during rain storms and before Deer Island was built. Very cool to see the difference. They say we have one of the cleaner harbors in the country now. Definitely a testament to how much of a difference we can make when we want to.
 
Sagan and Feynman are my heros!

Yes on Richard Feynman (he was also pretty witty ...some great anecdotes in his writing ...and often self-deprecating), but I'd go Groucho Marx over Sagan.

And as to the topic on-hand, all of these counter arguments seem to really be the new religion of the Left. In particular Climate Change, but as mentioned, if you know who someone voted for, you know pretty much where they stand as regards you. Meaning, that each person, but particularly on the Left judge you by your voting habits. A recent survey (sorry I don't recall the polling org, but it was recognized) asked whether you would automatically filter your potential romantic involvement with a person based upon their political affiliation, rejecting someone simply because they supported Left-leaning or Right-leaning politicians. Well, the respondents who were Left-leaning were almost twice as likely to reject a Right-leaning political supporter as vice versa. No real surprise there finding out who is more dogmatic and judgemental, willing to reject a suitor based upon that simple test.

Almost no one really argues anymore. Uncle M stopped talking at the big family gatherings during dinner, because the youngsters (anyone under 30 at this point ...hehehe) in the room could not withstand a logical discourse on 2A, Climate, or much of anything without erupting emotionally. So, now I'm pretty quiet at Thanksgiving/Christmas/etc.

It really is worthwhile picking up a tome or two on logic and how to frame an argument.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom