Carbine Optimized 9mm Load

[dcmdon]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has played around with a 9mm round optimized for carbine use.

I am not talking about a "hotter" load. I'm talking about a load that uses slower powder that can push the bullet faster while minimizing peak pressures.

If you think about it, a typical 9mm load is designed to burn all its powder in a 5" barrel. It is by necessity a fast burning powder. This fast burning powder is limited in how fast it can push the bullet by its steep pressure gradient.

A slower burning power can push "less hard" with lower pressure but for a longer period, making use of the full 16" barrel. You should be able to stay within SAAMI pressure limits and have a significantly faster MV with slower powder.

An added benefit of this would be that it would be safe in handguns, just very inefficient, with a large percent of the powder not burning by the time the bullet left the muzzle.

I have QuickLoad and was going to start playing with some magnum powders, but was wondering if anyone had any real world experience.

Part of it is that once you start using slower powders you run into case capacity issues. So ideally it would be as slow as possible, but not so slow that you couldn't fit a full charge in the case.

Don

 

[jpm]

I did just this with a Colt 9mm AR and then a CZ Scorpion after the Colt was gone. I didn't get a chance to test 147gr bullets, but I started with 124gr because I figured more bearing surface would be better vs the 115gr. I got ok results from those but then found Xtreme had a 135gr bullet and I got a sample from them to try. Those worked great!

Settled on 4.6gr CFE Pistol with the 135gr Xtreme @ 1.15" in the CZ and 4.5gr in the Colt. They shot silver dollar sized groups off the bench @ 50yds.

 

[DW357]

SJan might be able to offer some insight on that.

Edit nevermind

Maximum PCC energy

Say I wanted to optimize for maximum muzzle energy out of a 9mm carbine without exceeding safe chamber pressure: light bullet & slow powder? I have a bunch of 115gr. projectiles, so assume that weight. Which powder? HS-9? 2400? H110? Reloder 15? (That’s a joke) Obviously such a recipe would...

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[Parker Schreiber]

Federal makes what it claims is a PCC optimized 9mm round for range and competition shooting. Out of a 16" barrel, they claim 1140 m/s, which makes me wonder how come they didn't design it as a subsonic round.

Buy Syntech PCC for USD 28.99 | Federal Ammunition

Shopping for the Syntech PCC - Learn more about the latest Syntech PCC and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.

www.federalpremium.com

Since Federal is willing to make this stuff, it's pretty clear that my initial concern about a slower burning powder in a blowback design are unfounded. Since I'd rather pair my practice and self defense ammo as closely as possible, though, I think I'll stick with unoptimized 147gr loads.

 

[pastera]

Question is if you want to stock two different loads?
Just checked Gordon's Reloading Tool and for my Silhouette 9mm load it predicted about 1450 at 16" vs 1100 @ 3.5"

You could go with a slower powder but then you would run into burn issues in pistols

 

[meh]

I think the problem with 9x19 is there just isn't enough gas generated to maintain sufficient pressure in the barrel for most powders to burn effectively for very long. You just can't fit enough powder in the case. A slow powder that could manage it can't be compressed enough. With the fast and moderate powders, the MAP is reached very quickly and then pressure decays very rapidly. That means that even with a 16" barrel, you're not going to be able to burn all of the powder unless it is a fast powder.

After playing around with QuickLOAD, I don't think you're going to beat Power Pistol if you can find it, and just download it slightly if you want lower pressure to match the best velocities that can be achieved with other powders. Apart from that, it looks like there might be a bit of an optimum at Accurate #7. Anything slower than that looks like a waste of time. A lot of stuff slightly slower faster than that looks "ho hum" as well. That's just the slowest powder I could find that seemed to offer any advantage over the powders in the vicinity of Accurate #5

 

[SJan]

SJan might be able to offer some insight on that.

Edit nevermind

Maximum PCC energy

Say I wanted to optimize for maximum muzzle energy out of a 9mm carbine without exceeding safe chamber pressure: light bullet & slow powder? I have a bunch of 115gr. projectiles, so assume that weight. Which powder? HS-9? 2400? H110? Reloder 15? (That’s a joke) Obviously such a recipe would...

www.northeastshooters.com

What I said then is still valid.

I suggest trying the powders that are often used in 9major 2011 open guns: Autocomp, Silhouette, HS6, 3N38, CFE.

Look at BrianEnos forums, but know that these guys load way longer than normal 9mm COL, and often at or over +p+ SAAMI pressure

I assume you can still get most of the benefits of those powders, while loading at a safe charge weight and COL.

Assuming your carbine is blowback operated (most are) you will be beating it up pretty good. I think a steady diet of anything over a NATO spec 124 g ( about 1200fps) may wear or break parts. If it's an AR style, start with a super heavy buffer and spring, and have spare hammers and hammer pins on hand.
If it's a sig MPX, 1150 fps is the sweet spot for 124g, it will love it.

 

[dcmdon]

Thanks guys.

As to the practicality of this exercise. There is none. Reloading is a hobby in and of itself for me and sometimes toying with things is half the fun.
The rifle in question is an MPX so I'm not really worried about hammering a blow back design.

I just shot Walls of Steel with my MPX, switching from a pistol kind of at the last minute. I had a ball. It was so much fun. Partly because I'm learning and making mistakes. Whereas with a pistil its just another match. Not that I'm not learning something. But you learn a lot more shooting a rifle at your first match than you do a pistol at your 200th match.

Thanks again. you've provided enough info to keep me busy with research for an evening.

Don

 

[mac1911]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has played around with a 9mm round optimized for carbine use.

I am not talking about a "hotter" load. I'm talking about a load that uses slower powder that can push the bullet faster while minimizing peak pressures.

If you think about it, a typical 9mm load is designed to burn all its powder in a 5" barrel. It is by necessity a fast burning powder. This fast burning powder is limited in how fast it can push the bullet by its steep pressure gradient.

A slower burning power can push "less hard" with lower pressure but for a longer period, making use of the full 16" barrel. You should be able to stay within SAAMI pressure limits and have a significantly faster MV with slower powder.

An added benefit of this would be that it would be safe in handguns, just very inefficient, with a large percent of the powder not burning by the time the bullet left the muzzle.

I have QuickLoad and was going to start playing with some magnum powders, but was wondering if anyone had any real world experience.

Part of it is that once you start using slower powders you run into case capacity issues. So ideally it would be as slow as possible, but not so slow that you couldn't fit a full charge in the case.

Don

Right your going to need the slowest powder that will produce enough pressure and not over fill the case. Quick loads works pretty well for this just make sure you enter your OAL your using and change the barrel length settings.
Quick Loads worked real well in finding a charge/powder for cast loads in my M1 that would get the port pressure up to thecpoint it would cycle.