Can UBGC ever work?

[drgrant]

Right, but people who have been committed to an institution are *already* banned from touching guns.

And there’s no correlation between being treated for mental illness and mass shooters.

To top it off most of the nutters that do these things are either typical basement incel losers or similar are don't likely throw much data anyways, in other words, good luck dq-ing people the system doesn't know about.

-Mike

 

[42!]

I never said that, but nice try. No my point is that people who are being treated or have ben treated for mental illness should have to go through a secondary screening if they are to be considered to be allowed to possess or own a firearm.

Not sure how the process would be implemented but it should be done.

I'd like to hear what you consider mental illness?
I don't have an issue if it's someone who has gone through the full due process and been adjudicated mentally incompetent. There is a pretty high standard for this.
But if you were to include, say, a veteran who is having difficulty adjusting to civilian life so he talks with a therapist once a month or so. Well that's not mental illness in my book, that's just someone who needs a non-judgemental ear at a time when their life has been turned upside down.

 

[drgrant]

Most of the highly public shootings are people with bad mental health issues. Would be good to preclude them from ownership and access early on

Good luck detecting that without violating the shit out of the civil liberties of millions of people who wish to own firearms. You would have to force every person to multiple psych exams, and even then, that might not work either, do you think a sociopath is going to show their hand during one of these? Also, do you think there's some mystical force field that would stop them from getting guns the way other criminals do?


-Mike

 

[67ray]

There is absolutely no way for a "citizen database" to work because you're ignoring the concept of federalism.
. . .
Now, with guns, its a little easier in theory because you're only dealing with one Federal agency - the ATF. But the ATF gets all its info from the states unless someone's ticked off the Feds. And what the ATF wants is control over the system. Creating a user interface that allows people to NICS check themselves goes against the ATF's intent. In theory, the ATF can totally shut down and stop processing NICS checks, halting gun sales.

This is false. The law for NICS was written to exactly prevent that abuse. If the system is down, the FFL is not required to wait for a NICS to come up and use it. Same reason there is a three day expiry on a nonanswer. The NRA insisted that be in the Federal law to prevent the case where govt claims "oh its down" as a way to block 2A rights.

The problem is FFLs will NOT chance prosecution and having to defend themselves in court should they proceed while the system is down. But if govt tried that trick for any length of time I am sure that people might change that behavior.

BIDS v. NICS

 

[one-eyed Jack]

And what if the "Private Citizen" is a nut case him/her self? Jack.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Sounds like a lovely place. We can have a sign above the "entrance" to the "village" that says Arbeit Macht Frei. Sounds hip in a foreign language

What he's suggesting isn't totally insane as "poor farms" used to be common ways to deal with society's unemployable up until state and Federal welfare schemes kicked in around the 1920s and 30s. However, what he's suggesting will never happen. So it doesn't matter.

Poorhouse - Wikipedia

What if the poor were sent to work on town-owned farms? They were, and it wasn’t pretty

Good luck detecting that without violating the shit out of the civil liberties of millions of people who wish to own firearms. You would have to force every person to multiple psych exams, and even then, that might not work either, do you think a sociopath is going to show their hand during one of these? Also, do you think there's some mystical force field that would stop them from getting guns the way other criminals do?


-Mike

Any system that has mandatory mental health evals is rife for government just wrecking the rights of people who would've been perfectly fine without government intervention. We literally do not need the government in our heads.

This is false. The law for NICS was written to exactly prevent that abuse. If the system is down, the FFL is not required to wait for a NICS to come up and use it. Same reason there is a three day expiry on a nonanswer. The NRA insisted that be in the Federal law to prevent the case where govt claims "oh its down" as a way to block 2A rights.

The problem is FFLs will NOT chance prosecution and having to defend themselves in court should they proceed while the system is down. But if govt tried that trick for any length of time I am sure that people might change that behavior.

BIDS v. NICS

Laws that are written can be re-written and to say the NRA's trustworthiness is questionable in 2019 is an understatement. What the legislature giveth, the legislature can taketh away. OP is suggesting a total UBC system and that would require taking a new look at the NICS system. Meaning a Democrat could tweak the law to their heart's content.

 

[browncoat]

Universal background checks wont work due to the same reasons that the current background check system doesn't work.

1. The federal government doesn't appear willing to enforce existing laws on straw purchases against the (mostly female) relatives of criminals who buy gangsters guns.

2. Many of the high profile shootings are carried out by people with clean backgrounds.

3. Magic isn't real. There is no way to keep someone from just handing someone else a gun without doing the background check. Those who actually do the checks, like those who legally own guns in Massachusetts aren't the problem now and won't be the problem in the future

 

[drgrant]

This is false. The law for NICS was written to exactly prevent that abuse. If the system is down, the FFL is not required to wait for a NICS to come up and use it. Same reason there is a three day expiry on a nonanswer.

NICS fails open? wasn't aware of that, good luck getting a dealer that will actually do that, though.

-Mike

 

[HuntMaine]

Good luck detecting that without violating the shit out of the civil liberties of millions of people who wish to own firearms. You would have to force every person to multiple psych exams, and even then, that might not work either, do you think a sociopath is going to show their hand during one of these? Also, do you think there's some mystical force field that would stop them from getting guns the way other criminals do?


-Mike

For those younger people and older people for that matter on psych drugs already, being treated, extreme autism etc. no they should not have weapons. Older people with dementia etc. as well. There are a lot of kids and young adults who are just medicated to all hell that indeed should not have access. Not that hard.

 

[HuntMaine]

I'd like to hear what you consider mental illness?
I don't have an issue if it's someone who has gone through the full due process and been adjudicated mentally incompetent. There is a pretty high standard for this.
But if you were to include, say, a veteran who is having difficulty adjusting to civilian life so he talks with a therapist once a month or so. Well that's not mental illness in my book, that's just someone who needs a non-judgemental ear at a time when their life has been turned upside down.

I agree

 

[namedpipes]

Sounds like a lovely place. We can have a sign above the "entrance" to the "village" that says Arbeit Macht Frei. Sounds hip in a foreign language

Cute, but that does not invalidate my observation that many people are not capable of succeeding in our society.

I'm not proposing to bus people there but simply to make it available. Hell, half the people on this forum would jump at a chance to live in the 18th century, so long as they still had access to fine alcohol and cigars. I might go there myself!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I would like NICS to be able to access data or at least somehow flag people who have had mental illness Pre Adult as well as Adult

This is a certain way to make sure gun owners in need of mental health assistance avoid it.

Hell, half the people on this forum would jump at a chance to live in the 18th century, so long as they still had access to fine alcohol and cigars.

That works until you need some serious dentistry.

 

[namedpipes]

... however, what he's suggesting will never happen. So it doesn't matter. ...

I completely agree with you on this point.

Often, the right thing to do is not feasible for one reason or another.

Sometimes it's a point of legality, public perception, etc. More often it's a matter of nobody can figure out how to monetize it or increase their power base.

 

[namedpipes]

This is a certain way to make sure gun owners in need of mental health assistance avoid it.

That works until you need some serious dentistry.

I never said it was a perfect plan.

 

[drgrant]

For those younger people and older people for that matter on psych drugs already, being treated, extreme autism etc. no they should not have weapons. Older people with dementia etc. as well. There are a lot of kids and young adults who are just medicated to all hell that indeed should not have access. Not that hard.

The fun thing is those people already aren't committing mass shootings. Out of the last half dozen, major mass shooting perps, how many were known nutbags?

 

[milktree]

The fun thing is those people already aren't committing mass shootings. Out of the last half dozen, major mass shooting perps, how many were known nutbags?

Ooh! Ooh! Mr. Cotter! Pick me!

The answer is "none" or maybe "one".

 

[milktree]

For those younger people and older people for that matter on psych drugs already, being treated, extreme autism etc. no they should not have weapons. Older people with dementia etc. as well. There are a lot of kids and young adults who are just medicated to all hell that indeed should not have access. Not that hard.

1. Use of psych drugs doesn't indicate a danger to anyone.
2. being treated for the vast overwhelming majority of mental stuff does not indicate a danger to anyone.
3. there are no examples of someone with extreme autism shooting up anything. Autism doesn't make you dangerous. Nobody is going to hand a gun to someone with extreme autism. That's not a thing.
4. There is no spate of "old people with dementia going on killing sprees". It'd be insane to let .gov decide who is demented enough to have their rights taken away without lots of due process. Families intervene first in the vast overwhelming majority of cases of "old people with guns"
5. Where the hell do you get the idea that "medicated all to hell" == "shouldn't have guns"? Do you really think letting the "medication = gun ban" jinni out of the bottle is a good idea?

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Cute, but that does not invalidate my observation that many people are not capable of succeeding in our society.

I'm not proposing to bus people there but simply to make it available. Hell, half the people on this forum would jump at a chance to live in the 18th century, so long as they still had access to fine alcohol and cigars. I might go there myself!

Didn't mean to offend. Out here in the Shire we have many group homes set on farms for adults with disabilities. They are amazing places that do amazing work and th people who live there have purpose. Here is one of them.
https://stantonhome.org
There are many kids in our community who are on the spectrum. They can be angry, combative, or just troublesome. A very popular trend here is to give kids a job at home so they feel as though they are a productive part of the family. What job works great? Backyard chickens. The kids and families I know personally have benefited greatly by having this experience. Work=puropse=self worth.
There are certain things about the 1800s that are quaint. I have a passion for woodworking with traditional hand tools, no electronics. Think Roy Underhill (my idol). But every facet of daily life? I like hot showers, hot shaves, and warm toilet seats. And boil water for tea without having the cook stove running in August.
So to bring this back around to topic, UBGC is not something the public should have access to, some people feel marginalized and unnoticed, daily life has become a "us vs them" war where compromise is not an option, and a small segment will try their hand at infamy by shooting up a building full of unarmed people. UBGC won't solve anything except let Woodsy sell his Flobert F2F with a clear conscience.

 

[whatluck]

I love how you've made a new group of Americans divided along lines of mental health and want to impede their rights.

You have either committed and been convicted of a crime or haven't. Your standard of mental health is way too broad. Doctors are not judges or jurors.

This whole concept is disgusting to me. It's more big-government control hidden behind the thin veil of public safety. You've used bogus correlation to form a position based completely in fallacy, and use that as an excuse to give government more power.

You would happily give up your freedoms for a bit of perceived security.

Bleeeeeeeeeeat

 

[Deleted member 67409]

...Bleeeeeeeeeeat

I see your parents were too cheap (or rich?) to buy you a see-and-say:

 

[whatluck]

I see your parents were too cheap (or rich?) to buy you a see-and-say:

Ooorgle

 

[Varmint]

"The gun bans are coming (cuz the tv said so) lets bend over and lube up so it hurts less" thing, apparently....

I don't get it, every time this stuff happens there's always a group of people willing to set their rights on fire in a vain attempt at getting the nuisance anti people to go away, but they forget that there is no satisfying those people. The only way to stop them is to render them irrelevant....

-Mike

I feel like most people have wised up to the left's trick of common sense gun control. Most people know now they really want total disarmament.

But people don't seem to realize the GOP wants that too.

 

[fshalor]

In fairness he was asking you to clarify what you meant...

Here's the problem. The only way to know if someone ought to go through that secondary screening would be for the government to examine the medical records of everyone that seeks a gun license. In that one statement there are two, separate violations of the Constitution.

It is not possible to prevent these things from happening. It is only possible to reduce their impact (by allowing people to quickly respond - ie have a gun on them) and to punish those to do commit the atrocity.

MY view is that some people are incapable of existing peacefully in our society as it is today. Since WE aren't changing and since it seems inhumane to lock the poor buggers up in what amount to jails, the alternative is to remove them from that society:

Create throwback communities to 200 years +/- ago. A planned community along the lines of Olde Sturbridge Village, but self sustaining. Work out a plan to help people integrate into that society and find their niche, whether it is farming, blacksmith, teaching, running a shop, whatever. But there's no phone, no tv, SURE as hell no facebook. You get your news by walking down to town common and talking or reading the weekly paper. Yes, we had mud eaters back then but there weren't usually more than one or two idiots to a village.

Hard work is good therapy for many people.

We've forgotten that.

This.

We have forgotten a substantial number of origins of knowledge. There were reasons why parents pushed their kids into the fields which had nothing to do with needing the labor.

 

[whatluck]

I see your parents were too cheap (or rich?) to buy you a see-and-say:

btw i was raised by the state, so my see-and-say consisted of getting our house's hot librarian looking 22-year-old resident school teacher to say dirty words and make noises

i also have first-hand experience with state worker's ability to assess their residents' threat level to the people around them. most of the time the staff figures out someone is a threat after they've caused some damage. shrinks, doctors, nurses, counselors, teachers, coaches, all of the adults that we were exposed to were almost exclusively hard-leaning leftists, so keep that in mind when you're handing over your (and my children's) rights to medical privacy and due process, that these orgs that you champion as having such supreme wisdom that it would be prudent to IGNORE THE CONSTITUTION on their whim are padded almost completely with your enemy.

to the op:

next time you start a thread about areas of the constitution that you would ignore and destroy, maybe the focus could be the first amendment. you've already done a great job of displaying your distain for the second, third, fourth, fourteenth, and others. id love to hear your ideas about when it would be ok to use force of law to stop people from speaking, reporting, worshiping, petitioning, or assembling based on rulings from bureaucrats in shadow courts inside the EPA or FCC.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

btw i was raised by the state, so my see-and-say consisted of getting our house's hot librarian looking 22-year-old resident school teacher to say dirty words and make noises

i also have first-hand experience with state worker's ability to assess their residents' threat level to the people around them. most of the time the staff figures out someone is a threat after they've caused some damage. shrinks, doctors, nurses, counselors, teachers, coaches, all of the adults that we were exposed to were almost exclusively hard-leaning leftists, so keep that in mind when you're handing over your (and my children's) rights to medical privacy and due process, that these orgs that you champion as having such supreme wisdom that it would be prudent to IGNORE THE CONSTITUTION on their whim are padded almost completely with your enemy.

Lighten up, Francis. And find the post where I supported the OP's craptastic denial of due process and privacy. Because you won't. Drop the attitude.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Nothing HAS to work. As long as they inconvenience law abiding gun owners it works for them. Jack.

 

[Sprocket]

I'm gonna skip all of the above and just go straight to it - UBGS requires - REQUIRES - a government agency - a FEDERAL AGENCY - to to be thoughtful, efficient, accurate and timely...

A FEDERAL government agency - REQUIRED - to be timely...(waits for laughs to subside) - I'll just skip the rest about accuracy and efficiency.

And then there is the matter of individual states reporting...Let me know how that goes. Lets use traffic violations as a reference.

 

[TLB]

Didn't vote for Obama? Strike one. Voted for Trump? Strike two. Want to own guns? Strike three. You are hereby declared mentally ill. No guns for you!

 

[HuntMaine]

I'm gonna skip all of the above and just go straight to it - UBGS requires - REQUIRES - a government agency - a FEDERAL AGENCY - to to be thoughtful, efficient, accurate and timely...

A FEDERAL government agency - REQUIRED - to be timely...(waits for laughs to subside) - I'll just skip the rest about accuracy and efficiency.

And then there is the matter of individual states reporting...Let me know how that goes. Lets use traffic violations as a reference.

Well the train is coming and my guess is that there will need to be some give on gun owners side. How the whole thing is metered out Im not sure but there are mentally f”d up people who indeed should not have access to firearms. If you live in mass you already go through this BS

 

[Brewer]

Well the train is coming and my guess is that there will need to be some give on gun owners side.