Can I secure a handgun in my wifes car?

[Stevireno]

Hi there, question, I have a couple of these gun-vault black boxes with a key or combo lock, they have a tether to attach to the drivers seat and I can tuck the box under the seat with the firearm and a couple of mags in it. I do this in my car that only I drive. Can I legally do this in my wife's car as well?

I'm sure I cant, but just wanted to run it past the experts....

Thanks


-Stevireno

 

[ColdDayInHell]

If it's a locked container, I believe you're GTG. Is she driving it? Has keys? Might fall into the gray area in MA law.

 

[76Too]

If she drives it when you're not going tobe in the vehicle, i wouldn't risk it if you actually like having her around to cook and clean up after you.

 

[nobigdeal508]

INAL but to my understanding is if its in her vehicle and she isn't licensed no. IF you are in the vehicle it has to be under your direct control or locked up accordingly unloaded ect ect. I do not believe you can lock it in there and let her drive off though.

 

[Spanz]

I would personally not do it. If the car is stolen, then you will have a lot of explaining to do about why there was a gun you owned but in your wife's car. might call into question your suitability.

 

[whatluck]

Direct control is always best, but if you have to leave it in her car and she's not licensed, just make sure she doesn't have access to it and you obey storage/transport laws then you're good to go.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Direct control is always best, but if you have to leave it in her car and she's not licensed, just make sure she doesn't have access to it and you obey storage/transport laws then you're good to go.

That. Obviously if she's kin, you always want to pick protection over death. Laws are ****ed IMO. YMMV.

 

[jasons]

Moved to MA laws. (I assume this is a MA question....)

 

[ForWhomTheBellTolls]

Wifey should have LTC for many reasons!

 

[MaynardDad]

IANAL, but I recently dug through the laws and relevant court cases. The issue is what consitutes your wife's having a firearm under her control in a vehicle. Last year's Commonwealth v Amaury Reyes helped clear this up a little bit, but mostly the case demonstrated how much the commonwealth is willing to twist law and logic to screw you over and how unpredictable and devoid of login the courts are.

Amaury Reyes had been convicted by the lower court for improperly carrying a firearm in a motor vehicle in violation of MGL ch. 140, §131C(a) for leaving his loaded handgun in the glovebox in his locked car while at work:

MGL ch. 140, §131C(a). No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

The commonwealth argued that so long as the firearm remained in the defendant's vehicle—even after he had left and locked it—the firearm was being carried by him in a vehicle within the meaning of the statute. And, because the firearm was no longer under his direct control, he violated the carrying statute. The SJC decided that the carrying statute does not apply once the defendant leaves his vehicle and leaves the firearm in it:

The only question, then, is whether the carrying statute applies once the defendant leaves his vehicle and leaves the firearm in it. Our reading of the interrelationship between the carrying and storage statutes leads us to conclude that it does not. Once the defendant left his motor vehicle and the firearm in it, he became subject to the storage statute [§131L] because he was storing or keeping his firearm in a "place" neither on his person nor "under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user."

So at least it's clear that you're not carrying the gun after you store it in your vehicle and walk away. But could you wife be found to have the gun "in [her] possession" or "knowingly under [her] control in a vehicle" it if she drives the vehicle that you have stored it in (or even just sits in the vehicle with the air conditioning and the radio on while you run into the post office) and get in trouble under ch. 269 §10?

MGL ch. 269 §10. (a) Whoever, except as provided or exempted by statute, knowingly has in his possession; or knowingly has under his control in a vehicle; a firearm, loaded or unloaded, … without either:

(1) being present in or on his residence or place of business; or
(2) having in effect a license to carry firearms;
…
shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not less than two and one-half years nor more than five years, or for not less than 18 months nor more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of correction.

…

(n) Whoever violates paragraph (a) or paragraph (c), by means of a loaded firearm, loaded sawed off shotgun or loaded machine gun shall be further punished by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 21/2 years, which sentence shall begin from and after the expiration of the sentence for the violation of paragraph (a) or paragraph (c).

Until the SJC explicitly says "no," you have to assume that the prosecutor will argue "yes" and that the courts will decide whatever the hell they want.

Commonwealth v Seay (1978) says that “‘Carrying a firearm’ occurs when one ‘...knowingly has more than momentary possession of a working firearm and moves it from one place to another.’” Commonwealth v Diaz (1983) says that "One who exercises control over a firearm which is in a moving vehicle is … responsible for the movement of the firearm …" I could easily see the SJC deciding that your wife is exercising control of the firearm even though it's in a locked box that she does not have the key or combination to.

As others have said, the only solution is for your wife to get an LTC.

 

[Stevireno]

Wow, mass laws are so screwy and likely deliberately vague. It sounds like there is no reason to even have the lock box in her, or even my car.

Thanks for the clarification and input all...

Steve

 

[45collector]

Direct control is always best, but if you have to leave it in her car and she's not licensed, just make sure she doesn't have access to it and you obey storage/transport laws then you're good to go.

I would not suggest this. You're just asking for trouble.

 

[MaynardDad]

Wow, mass laws are so screwy and likely deliberately vague. It sounds like there is no reason to even have the lock box in her, or even my car.

The lock box is still valuable for storing your handgun when leaving the car to go somewhere you're not allowed to (or don't want to) carry. Just make sure to not leave anybody without a license in the car.

You could store your gun in a locked trunk instead of a lock box, but that has two (potential) problems: (1) It's harder to do discreetly, and (2) once you return, you have to remember to retrieve the gun and put it back under your direct control. The carrying statute (MGL ch. 140, §131C(a)) requires that the loaded gun be under your direct control when carried in a vehicle, and I'm not sure that the trunk qualifies. In contrast, the lock box could be put it under your seat or in the center console, where it is under your direct control.

One curious thing that I noticed: for LTC-A holders, 131C only applies to handguns (firearms) when they're loaded. From a plain reading of 131C, unloaded hanguns can be carried anywhere in the car and need not be under your direct control. I wouldn't want to unload my carry gun in the car, so the only practical implication that I can see is that you're allowed to throw your unlocked range bag with unloaded handguns into the back seat when you're driving by yourself to the range; you don't need to lock the bag or put it in the trunk or keep it next to you. In contrast, someone with an LTC-B would have to lock the range bag or put it in the locked trunk.

 

[Stevireno]

Ok, so if I decide to leave the handgun in the lockbox while I go to a carnival or beach, somewhere I could carry but decide not to, if my car gets stolen, I take it I am in legal trouble for not having the gun under my direct control? Is this correct?

 

[MaynardDad]

Ok, so if I decide to leave the handgun in the lockbox while I go to a carnival or beach, somewhere I could carry but decide not to, if my car gets stolen, I take it I am in legal trouble for not having the gun under my direct control? Is this correct?

No, that's not correct. The Commonwealth v Amaury Reyes decision made it clear that once you store the gun properly in your empty and locked car, as specified in the storage statute (131L), the carry statute (131C) does not apply, so you do not have to keep the gun under your direct control.

So storing your gun in an empty car is clearly legal.

The gray area is whether an unlicensed person who is in the car that you stored the gun in can get in trouble for having a gun under her control in a vehicle without an LTC.

 

[Spanz]

a lock box is a great idea. Lets say you are hunting for a couple days, and are in a restaurant and worried about your rifle. If it is locked up in a way that it can not be removed from the car without a cutting torch...you have about the best argument in the world that you are responsible in handling it.

But, if it were me, the box would be empty when I was not transporting a gun for a purpose. If I need to carry, I will carry.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Wow, mass laws are so screwy and likely deliberately vague. It sounds like there is no reason to even have the lock box in her, or even my car.

Thanks for the clarification and input all...

Steve

Yes, water still must be wet. It's just more bullshit traps you could fall into. Make sure she doesn't have a 22 casing stuck in her shoe

 

[MisterHappy]

Ok, so if I decide to leave the handgun in the lockbox while I go to a carnival or beach, somewhere I could carry but decide not to, if my car gets stolen, I take it I am in legal trouble for not having the gun under my direct control? Is this correct?

You will be "in trouble", as the guy in Lowell was in trouble for having his "very secure" (in the words of a police officer) vault broken into. Will you be vindicated in the end? Most likely. Will it be fun? No.

Just don't get your car stolen.

This is where you have the problem of fear: When is the last time your car was stolen? How many days have you owned a car? Divide the first number by the second, and you have the chance. It's vanishingly unlikely, but it's what you predicate your actions on.

 

[Stevireno]

You will be "in trouble", as the guy in Lowell was in trouble for having his "very secure" (in the words of a police officer) vault broken into. Will you be vindicated in the end? Most likely. Will it be fun? No.

Just don't get your car stolen.

This is where you have the problem of fear: When is the last time your car was stolen? How many days have you owned a car? Divide the first number by the second, and you have the chance. It's vanishingly unlikely, but it's what you predicate your actions on.

Very true, I just want to protect myself and family, but I spend more time trying to figure out how to not trigger a senseless law that is vague.

When I carry, I worry more about the terrible mass laws than i do the bad guys that I want to protect myself from. I'm going to die from stress over the laws way before someone takes a shot at me!

 

[MisterHappy]

Very true, I just want to protect myself and family, but I spend more time trying to figure out how to not trigger a senseless law that is vague.

When I carry, I worry more about the terrible mass laws than i do the bad guys that I want to protect myself from. I'm going to die from stress over the laws way before someone takes a shot at me!

Well, I'd say that the .gov of the PRM would give you an "attaboy" for being part of the solution!

 

[mikelawtown]

In a locked box is ok, but make sure the Mag is out of it. can be in the same car but not in the same box.

 

[Stevireno]

Ok. I keep 3 loaded mags in the box, none of them in the gun.

 

[jasons]

In a locked box is ok, but make sure the Mag is out of it. can be in the same box but not loaded.

Cite?

 

[mikelawtown]

Cite?

fixed

 

[MisterHappy]

fixed

not really.

The gun just has to be unloaded; there is no requirement that the ammo be separate. As long as there is no ammo in the chamber(s), or magazine that is contained in the firearm, its good.

You could use ammo as "packing peanuts" for your gun, as long as you could find ammo and there was none in the gun.

Not saying that it's Massprudent, but it's not unlawful.

 

[Stevireno]

Thanks for the info. I do keep full mags in the box, but none in the gun, so I think I am clear...

 

[MaynardDad]

In a locked box is ok, but make sure the Mag is out of it. can be in the same car but not in the same box.

Unless your LTC is class B (or you have restrictions that require it), there is nothing that says that the handgun has to be unloaded.

 

[sig shooter]

Is the bottom line that you can transport a gun in another's vehicle, in accordance with MA law as long as a licensed individual is in the car at all times and all other laws are followed?

Sent from my C6522N using Tapatalk

 

[FrugalFannie]

Is the bottom line that you can transport a gun in another's vehicle, in accordance with MA law as long as a licensed individual is in the car at all times and all other laws are followed?

Sent from my C6522N using Tapatalk

yes.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I would personally not do it. If the car is stolen, then you will have a lot of explaining to do about why there was a gun you owned but in your wife's car. might call into question your suitability.

More likely, an accident in which the contents are inventoried when the care is towed. If they ask about the locked box, do you really think your wife will remain silent?