Can a MA FFL RECIEVE A NON COMPLIANT GUN from Out of State

LotsaTiques

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Here's a question that I'm pretty sure of the law but need to find it written so I can send it to a firearms company.

I own here in MA a non compliant .22 pistol. I'm having a lot of cycling problems with it's covered under a lifetime warranty. It has been back to the manufacturer 3 times and today it went back for the 4th time. They can't seem to fix it. After the 3rd attempt I finally convinced them to replace the gun with a new one, which they agreed to do. The co. supervisor requested I have an FFL, here in MA send them a copy of their license, which I did and they got it fine.

About 2 weeks later my original pistol (supposedly fixed) was sent back to ME not to the FFL. When I called and questioned the supervisor he said the pistol isn't MA compliant so he can't send me a replacement gun. I told him it is legal to send the replacement gun to an FFL, that an FFL is exempt and it's legal for him to receive a non-compliant gun. He said that's not true. SO, I need to find the law that says he is exempt so I can forward it to the supervisor.

Any help will be appreciated because if I can't get a replacement gun I'll be stuck with a non working one.

Thanks,
David
 

Bolt-1

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Problem is that the Mass FFL can't (shouldn't) transfer a new non-roster gun to you. Jack.
As Jack said in his reply to your post. The operative words in his statement are "new non-roster gun"
So unfortunately you're out of luck on them sending you a new one.
A FFL here in Mass. is not exempt from selling or transferring a "new" gun that is not on the roster
 

LotsaTiques

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Yes, I am aware of the FFL issue to transfer the gun to me. I only asked if the FFL in MA can legally receive a non-compliant gun and where might I find that law/info.

My intent is to have the FFL sell the new gun (out of MA) so I can recoup my money. My gun now doesn"t cycle so I'm stuck with a gun that I can't sell or can't sell for a decent price.

David
 

appraiser

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Ask the manufacturer to make you a replacement with the same serial number and destroy the original, than they can send it directly to you.

Also point out the below cite that says a REPLACEMENT of the same type can be sent directly to you, and that you would have to eFA-10 it upon receipt]
FFLs may also return a replacement firearm of the same kind and type to the person from whom received (18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(2)(A)).
 

appraiser

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An ATF Form 4473 is required for the return of the firearm, except in instances when a firearm is delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the same firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received (27 CFR § 478.124(a)).
 

LotsaTiques

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Ok, I am aware that the FFl can't transfer the gun to me and I really appreciate ALL your guys input and help but you seem to be stuck on me and a non compliant gun. So, let's move on to my original question, which is simply - Can a MA FFL receive a non-compliant gun from out of state?

I was always under the impression that an FFL can - The company I'm dealing with maintains that MA is a restricted state so they will not send the gun here.

In terms of fixing it.....it has been back to the company 4 times for repair - every internal part (every) has been replaced and some parts twice. Barrel & feed ramp, extractor (twice), extractor spring (twice) recoil assembly & spring (twice), firing pin & spring, rear mechanism & pins. All these parts have been replaced and it still jams. Can't get through one mag. And each time it's "fixed" they fed ex it back to me.....3 times now and soon a 4th time. TOh yea, I almost forgot, I did ask them to put my serial number on the replacement gun - "Nope, we don't do that" was the answer.

This company has absolutely the worst customer service I have ever dealt with. It was bad that to get them to listen/speak to me I had to contact the BBB in their state - that made them jump!

Jack, pm me and I'll tell you.

David
 

AHM

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... I am aware that the FFl can't transfer the gun to me and I really appreciate ALL your guys input and help but you seem to be stuck on me and a non compliant gun. So, let's move on to my original question, which is simply - Can a MA FFL receive a non-compliant gun from out of state?
Both the manufacturer and your local FFL have valid reasons for noping past
the deal you want for reasons unrelated to the law that's too subtle for folks.

The manufacturer doesn't want to ship a gun to an FFL that the FFL can't transfer
to an in-state buyer, because the normal reaction of an FFL to that
is to refuse delivery and then someone gets stuck paying to ship it back.

The FFL doesn't want the hassle of finding a buyer for a gun that has to be sold
in some kind of tedious online transaction to an out-of-stater.
They could do it, but if their normal line of business is selling to
people who walk in the door, why do they need the hassle?

And while I was typing that, @one-eyed Jack alluded to the problem right above.

At the very least, you should find an out-of-state FFL that is willing to sell
your gun to one of their walk-in local residents on consignment.
And then tell the manufacturer to ship the gun to them.
 

LotsaTiques

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I don't mean to be rude and I surely do appreciate all your guys input and I know you're trying to help and give me good sound advise.....BUT....why the heck are you telling me what the FFL will or will not do? Maybe the FFL is my wife/husband, my brother, my dad, me, even, sheesh.

I guess I won't get an answer to my very simple question!!

Thanks anyway all,
David
 

CrackPot

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Compliance is solely a restriction on what a MA Dealer can transfer/sell to an inmate of MA. That is it. That is the totality of the information you need to answer your own question.

You will never succeed in convincing the compliance department of some out of state manufacturer of anything. The fact that it is legal for a MA FFL to take in ANY gun of any sort they just don't care.

The fact that you are unwilling to tell us what the gun is I find interesting. If it is not an assault weapon it is 100% legal for you to own so I don't know why you are keeping it a secret.

I guess we wont get an answer to our very simple question!!

Thanks anyway David,
All
 

neum69

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OP, It might be useful for you to describe your desired outcome. If your goal is simply to get rid of the gun while minimizing out of pocket cost, why dont you have the mfg “fix” and return it to you, and then list it on gunbroker or elsewhere, with the caveats on function listed?
 

appraiser

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OK here is the scoop, unless you know a FFL who is willing to ignore a whole bunch of rules, regulations, and laws to help you, you are S.O.L.

If you have no previous relationship with that, or any other FFL why are they going to put their backside in a sling for you?

There are FFL's that have found creative ways that are legal and defendable to sell "off list" firearms, but they are not selling them as firearms.

You are asking for a FFL, or why a FFL will not accept and transfer a gun that he can not legally transfer to you in complete form.

The answer is because it is not in their best interests to do so.

We have pointed out to you that the manufacturer can legally ship to you, directly and without a FFL involved, a replacement firearm of the same kind and quality, in english that means they can legally send you a replacement gun for your P.O.S. even if it has a different serial number. All you need to do is eFA-10 it. It is done all the time, ask anyone who has ever had a Glock frame fail.

You are like the guy that comes in to get his car inspected and wants me to ignore everything that is wrong with it, then throws a hissy fit when I tell them to go fix it then come and see me. I am the guy legally on the hook, not you, so please don't expect me to willingly put my butt on the line for you.
 

LotsaTiques

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Appraiser, what the heck are you talking about? I’m not looking for an FFL to do any transfer. I already have one. I’m trying to figure out how to convince the manufacturer of my gun that it is perfectly legal for them to send a replacement gun to an FFL in MA regardless of any MA restrictions. That’s it. Nothing more and nothing less. For the purpose of this conversation, what the FFL does after the receipt of the gun is irrelevant.

I hope it’s clearer now what I’m looking for. Thanks a lot for understanding.

David
 

appraiser

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Appraiser, what the heck are you talking about? I’m not looking for an FFL to do any transfer. I already have one. I’m trying to figure out how to convince the manufacturer of my gun that it is perfectly legal for them to send a replacement gun to an FFL in MA regardless of any MA restrictions. That’s it. Nothing more and nothing less. For the purpose of this conversation, what the FFL does after the receipt of the gun is irrelevant.

I hope it’s clearer now what I’m looking for. Thanks a lot for understanding.

David
You don't need to send it to an FFL, they can send it to you directly and legally without a 4473 being done

That is what you need to convince them of, and I posted the appropriate IMHO laws/regulations in a previous post.

Cut out the middle man.

I'm out
 

LuvDog

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I don’t think you’ll find anything in writing that says an FFL can accept it. Laws don’t usually dictate what is allowed they call out what is not.

We all know an FFL can accept it, but out of state manufacturers, retailers don’t care. Much like it’s perfectly legal to ship Ammo or parts here, but that doesn’t help us much when they are all scared of our AG.
 

jpm

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@LotsaTiques already answered:

Compliance is solely a restriction on what a MA Dealer can transfer/sell to an inmate of MA. That is it. That is the totality of the information you need to answer your own question.

You will never succeed in convincing the compliance department of some out of state manufacturer of anything. The fact that it is legal for a MA FFL to take in ANY gun of any sort they just don't care.

The fact that you are unwilling to tell us what the gun is I find interesting. If it is not an assault weapon it is 100% legal for you to own so I don't know why you are keeping it a secret.

I guess we wont get an answer to our very simple question!!

Thanks anyway David,
All
 

Len-2A Training

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Appraiser, what the heck are you talking about? I’m not looking for an FFL to do any transfer. I already have one. I’m trying to figure out how to convince the manufacturer of my gun that it is perfectly legal for them to send a replacement gun to an FFL in MA regardless of any MA restrictions. That’s it. Nothing more and nothing less. For the purpose of this conversation, what the FFL does after the receipt of the gun is irrelevant.

I hope it’s clearer now what I’m looking for. Thanks a lot for understanding.

David
I recall reading of a case on here like yours many years ago. The person in that case had to get the AG to DIRECT the mfr to ship the replacement gun to him or his FFL (don't recall that detail). You might have to do the same thing.
 

AHM

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I recall reading of a case on here like yours many years ago. The person in that case had to get the AG to DIRECT the mfr to ship the replacement gun to him or his FFL (don't recall that detail). You might have to do the same thing.
"Consumer affairs". [rofl]
 

madmas1208

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I don't think the legal department of a gun manufact. is on an internet forum looking for advise about Ma FFL's, their policy's are their policy's and they are not going to ship a non Ma Comp. firearm to Ma and I dont think anyone will convince them otherwise. Take back the original firearm they will send back to you and return it where you bought it or try to deal with it as any defective product, whether it be a firearm or a crappy toaster oven.
 

LotsaTiques

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Yea, I figured I am screwed. I suggested the manufacturer just destroy my gun and put my serial number on the replacement - They WON'T was his answer. What's interesting to me is they sent my gun back to ME 3 times no problem but they refuse to send a replacement to me OR to my FFL even though I told them it is 100% legal. They don't give a crap.

Len-2A has a good solution but I doubt if the AG would actually do that (I could be wrong and I'll pursue that).

LuvDog, you are probably right but the purpose of my question here was hoping there was something in writing. I've wasted a few months dealing on this nonsense with idiots at the other end. 3 times they tried to fix the problem and they can't!

I asked the manufacturer if the warranty goes with the gun. So I could sell it (to a friend for a buck), have him get a replacement and sell it back to me (for a buck). The answer - NOPE, If I sell the gun no more warranty.

Now, the reason I haven't disclosed the gun and manufacturer was because I didn't want a bunch of comments going off topic about the company etc. I wanted to merely stay on track to see if I could get some solution for my issue. The thread went off topic anyway focusing on FFL issues etc.

I apologize for any negativity you derived from me. That was not my intention.

The company is Taurus. The absolute worst idiots I have ever dealt with. The gun is the Taurus TX22. It's a great gun and I have friends who have great shooters - ME, nope.

I'll keep watching the thread in case someone weighs in with a solution.

Happy New Year to you all, stay safe and thanks for all your input,
David
 

Grendizer138

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By the way, I had a similar experience with a Kahr. They would only replace with a “MA compliant” version. Fortunately I have a good relationship with the shop I bought it at.

 
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