C&R Thread

[ridleyman]

I've had a C&R (Curio and Relics FFL, which allows you to buy and receive by mail guns 50 years old or older) for about 4 years now, and I'm glad I got it. I generally have had some good deals with honest people, the majority for sure, although I've also had my share of exaggerators, fabricators, and deceivers. I find that auction houses, such as Rock Island Auctioneers and Amoskeag, tend to be accurate, yet you have to pay this premium of 17.5% when you "win" an auction. I have a nice 1943 Colt 1911A1 (slide and frame have matching serial #s) that I got for a decent price, but the premium added over $100 to the bill. Still, I'm happy. I also have a 1918 1911 which I got from Gun Broker, one of those rare deals where the person is both honest and the price is very reasonable. I lucked out and there's no surcharge. It seems as though most folks on GB and Guns International are either delusional, or serious azzholes, or both, asking absurd prices. And beware, as sometimes when I get a good price, even after confirming the description, the seller has not been forthcoming or thorough.

 

[daekken]

Buy the gun, not the story.

Do your research. In the days of the internet, there's tons of resources to utilize without needing to seek out dusty tomes or reclusive experts (for most things).

It's still a lot of fun at the end of the day!

 

[mac1911]

The discounts have been worth having the license. Sad to see a few “C&R” dealers go over the years SOG was one I miss.
Maybe we will see a fresh flush of old guns in the next few years?

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Don't forget, you can buy guns younger than 50 years old with your C&R. In fact you can buy brand new guns with your C&R as long as it qualifies under the third paragraph of the C&R language:
"Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event."

 

[EddieZoom]

Don't forget, you can buy guns younger than 50 years old with your C&R. In fact you can buy brand new guns with your C&R as long as it qualifies under the third paragraph of the C&R language:
"Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event."

hmmmm...got a real world example ?

 

[Deleted member 67409]

hmmmm...got a real world example ?

CZ handguns from the 1980s like the CZ 82 and 83.

ATF has a very specific list of guns that are C&R eligible, although not every possible gun that could be a C&R is on the list. Basically, the gun has to be either (a) 50+ years old and not in a significantly altered condition (no Bubba, or the Bubba'ing has to add to the historocity, like a duffle cut WW1 or WW2 bringback rifle); (b) is particularly rare or associated with an event, time, or person; or (c) is of particular interest to museums, etc.

Curios & Relics | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

What firearms are considered to be curio and relic firearms? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

To be recognized as a curio or relic, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2. Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3. Firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, or bizarre or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

The CZ handguns I mentioned before fall into No. 3 above because of their Cold War association and are specified by ATF as a C&R. While ATF doesn't have to name such guns as C&Rs, it does help, because good luck explaining that a gun is "novel, rare, or bizzare" to a manufacturer/gunsmith/gun shop/pawn shop.

Note that a stripped receiver is not a C&R because its been modified.
...

I used to have a C&R but my finances at the time didn't really allow for random gun buying here and there, so I never used it. Now that I'm permanently in NH, I'll probably renew my 03. With military surplus drying up, I don't expect to see massive deals, but we never know, as demonstrated by the recent guns coming out of Ethiopia.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

hmmmm...got a real world example ?

Yup. I bought a brand new Ruger MK II NRA William B. Ruger Endowment Commemorative pistol from a dealer with my C&R.

 

[1776]

My newest C&R - Smith & Wesson S&W Model 544, 44-40 mfg 1986

 

[daekken]

hmmmm...got a real world example ?

As @C. Stockwell mentions, the CZ82 is even in the book. The book, of course, is not exhaustive.

I wonder if something like the Semmerling LM4 for example, could be had on a C&R. I would argue yes.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

As @C. Stockwell mentions, the CZ82 is even in the book. The book, of course, is not exhaustive.

I wonder if something like the Semmerling LM4 for example, could be had on a C&R. I would argue yes.

I think the Semmerling is probably just going to creep onto the C&R list by age; those came out in 1979, so by default, they'll start being C&R in 2029.

Now, something like the Zip 22 might be a sooner-rather-than-later C&R gun because not many were made and most of their value today comes from the fact of how weird they are. Do I think ATF will give it special blessing by putting it in the list? No, but I think private buyers could make the argument.

 

[steve8140]

When can I buy the “Joe Biden Comemorative” 1911 and golden boy.

They should be considered rare and collectible and a special period of history since he’s on a roll to be the president with the shortest term in history once he gets railroaded by his own party.

 

[1776]

They probably already have those in the adult toy stores
It would be the Hunter version

 

[mothybee]

When can I buy the “Joe Biden Comemorative” 1911 and golden boy.

They should be considered rare and collectible and a special period of history since he’s on a roll to be the president with the shortest term in history once he gets railroaded by his own party.

No, he can't even do that right, one died right after taking office. Though he will always be remembered as the father of the Taliban Air Force.

 

[daekken]

a special period of history since he’s on a roll to be the president with the shortest term in history once he gets railroaded by his own party.

Not possible, he's already served longer than James Garfield and William Henry Harrison.

 

[steve8140]

Not possible, he's already served longer than James Garfield and William Henry Harrison.

Well shit, 31 days is tough to beat. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[67ray]

It all comes down to the seller and buyer. Legit C&R holders are respectful of the law and unwilling to take chances by selling something that isn't explicitly on the list. Why would they? Plenty of other ways to sell without potential liability.

And of course man y sellers won't sip C&R here becuz Mass! No matter how you try to explain the laws they think Maura will reach out and pinch them.

 

[ridleyman]

Here are a few places that have C&R guns, not necessarily cheap:

JG

Classic

Atlantic

Salter

Collectors

 

[LLF]

A couple of years ago I was at a gun shop that sells a lot of C&R guns. An old timer was watching me peel off bills to pay for a Luger and a P.38. I started bragging about how great it was to have a FFL03. For only $30 I could buy all these great guns! He laughed and said he gave up his FFL03 years ago. "It was the most expensive $30 I ever spent." Too true!

 

[Dennis in MA]

I've gotten a few gems with my almost-20-yo C&R. I got a couple of Maks back in the day for $120. A Sistema Colt (Argentinian 1911 on Colt equipment). I scored a 08 Colt hammerless on Gunbroker a few years ago. That thing closes like a vault door. And about 18 months ago, I got a bug about a pre-WWII 1911. Scored a 1914 army property Colt with #'s matching for about what CMP was charging for a franken-1911. LOL

 

[tuna]

Standard blues for me. I got the 03 to buy cheap guns when I didn't have the money to spend on them. Now they're not so cheap anymore and I'm just as choosy about Milsurps as I am about any other gun. Still nice to have for the older guns that catch my eye on the auction sites, and if it catches my eye, it probably is C&R.

I'm noticing that I'm really getting set in my ways of what I like. It used to be I'd still peruse all the gun racks just in case something was too good to pass up. Now I don't care. I was at a local fair last week and there were two or three tents set up with raffles for different guns. All the guns were either ARs or plastic stocked whatevers or striker fired polymer pistols, and I just walked by. When my son asked why I didn't get a raffle ticket, I said the guns weren't worth the $5 to me, and I wasn't being cheap this time - I just didn't want them. I don't think they're crap, I just have no interest.

I think I need help.

 

[1903Collector]

I let my C&R expire a few years back, it was cool for the first couple of rifles but when Mr. ATF man came calling for an inspection, audit or whatever the f*** they call it that was it for me. Feds are like vampires, never invite them in!

There were other reasons I didn't renew it, I was getting away from older mil stuff but that was the icing on cake.

 

[wmass]

I’ve had mine for a few years and have yet to make a purchase. Either I thought price didn’t match condition, F***ers wouldn’t ship to Mass or funds weren’t right at the time. Always on the look out for something that catches the eye.

ATF has yet to want an audit. Itd be one of the quickest they ever did.

 

[1903Collector]

ATF has yet to want an audit. Itd be one of the quickest they ever did.

When they did mine they must have been "catching up" because they did a lot of people around the same time. It was quick and the inspector was cool but I didn't like it when he saw my reloading setup and started asking me if I sell ammo. f*** that, lesson learned, never again. Yes, you can go to them with your bound book but who has time for that shit either and at that time there really wasn't a big advantage to having one in MA.

I got the sense they don't audit 03s often until someone higher up gets on their case about it, then they do a bunch of them.

 

[massgun]

Had an 01 FFL for 9 years, 90 to 99, no phone calls or visits. Few years later I got a C&R, about 2 years later they did an audit, after 1 renewal I let it lapse.

 

[chidiver]

I seem to recall that an 03 audit is to just review paperwork and you can do it in their offices. Maybe not.

 

[daekken]

Had an 01 FFL for 9 years, 90 to 99, no phone calls or visits. Few years later I got a C&R, about 2 years later they did an audit, after 1 renewal I let it lapse.

I always let mine lapse and then reapply because unlike 01's you no longer have to maintain a bound book, and your previously acquired guns are no longer subject to audit.

So, use the license for two years and follow the regs, apply so that they get your new app like a week after your current one expires, and you can torch your old bound book and start fresh.

 

[AHM]

When they did mine ... he saw my reloading setup and started asking me if I sell ammo. f*** that, ... Yes, you can go to them with your bound book but who has time for that shit either ...

People who don't invite The Man into their life?

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I've had the 03 for over 30 years and have never used it. Never had an audit either. Last time I had the audit for the 07, Lisa noticed the 03 on the wall. Was surprised. Nothing in her records. No audit for that. Oh, well. Jack.

 

[pinefd]

I just got my C&R license a few days ago, and can't wait to get my money's worth! I have some questions about C&Rs and MA laws that I'm hoping someone here might be a able to answer for me. I figured I'd just bump this thread, rather than starting a new one. And I couldn't find the answer elsewhere.

I'm no longer a MA resident (thank god), but live just a short drive over the border in RI. If I were to find C&R eligible firearm at a gun shop close by in MA, could I buy it on the spot and take possession right away and transport it back home, or would I have to have it shipped to me because I no longer have a MA license? Would FOPA somehow apply here if I'm going directly home where I am licensed? Does it make a difference whether it's a rifle versus a handgun?

Thanks in advance!


Frank

 

[67ray]

I just got my C&R license a few days ago, and can't wait to get my money's worth! I have some questions about C&Rs and MA laws that I'm hoping someone here might be a able to answer for me. I figured I'd just bump this thread, rather than starting a new one. And I couldn't find the answer elsewhere.

I'm no longer a MA resident (thank god), but live just a short drive over the border in RI. If I were to find C&R eligible firearm at a gun shop close by in MA, could I buy it on the spot and take possession right away and transport it back home, or would I have to have it shipped to me because I no longer have a MA license? Would FOPA somehow apply here if I'm going directly home where I am licensed? Does it make a difference whether it's a rifle versus a handgun?

Thanks in advance!


Frank

No LTC in Mass, not legal to possess guns in Commonwealth. Simple.

FOPA might help you in Court, but how/where/when you bought it won't make a diff to joe copper who pulls you over and finds out you have a gun. And it's his day.