C&R Question

[BTSDOG]

I just renewed my C&R and recieved it in the mail. I made about 20 copies in case i start buying stuff, the question I have is, do i have to sign the original, or can i sign a copy to put in a frame and hang on the wall in my reloading room. thanks

 

[Mark from MA]

If you buy something you'll need to give a COPY that has an original signature to the seller.

Do not sign the original. Make copies and sign them as you buy.

 

[headednorth]

My understanding as well. You can make a copy of the original but the copy must be signed, not a copy of a signature. Sign the copies not the original.

 

[BTSDOG]

Got the signature thing, thanks. Now another question. On the new license, the number is different. Does that mean i need a new bound book, or can one book have two different license numbers ?

 

[looser38]

The original is not valid unless signed. In the event of a visit from the ATF, it should be signed. So make some copies of the original w/o signature then sign and keep it with your log book. Take unsigned copy with you to purchase and sign it at time of purchase. Make more copies as needed.

 

[looser38]

Your number changes each time you renew because of date codes. You can keep working with the original book until you fill it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The original is not valid unless signed. In the event of a visit from the ATF, it should be signed. So make some copies of the original w/o signature then sign and keep it with your log book. Take unsigned copy with you to purchase and sign it at time of purchase. Make more copies as needed.

I've never seen that and there is no known requirement to post a copy of a C&R FFL (unlike a dealer/mfr).

 

[daekken]

Never heard of anyone signing the original (actually, a couple of people that signed and dated it by mistake and then were SOL when trying to use it).

I just scanned in a high-res unsigned copy and saved as a PDF, then I print it out and sign in ink as needed. Never heard of anyone "posting it" anywhere on a wall, except maybe for one's personal aesthetic.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Never heard of anyone signing the original (actually, a couple of people that signed and dated it by mistake and then were SOL when trying to use it).

I just scanned in a high-res unsigned copy and saved as a PDF, then I print it out and sign in ink as needed. Never heard of anyone "posting it" anywhere on a wall, except maybe for one's personal aesthetic.

Ditto!

And wrt an BATFE audit, very unlikely but the rules are different. It is stated as a paper audit only, one need not produce any guns for them to inspect and you can request to do the audit of your BB at a BATFE office if you wish!

 

[looser38]

Like I said, make some copies before you sign the original. Set them aside to use when needed. Sign the original and keep it with your records. You are now a federally liscensed Collector of Curios & Relics. Make extra copies from your copies if needed and sign them at time and place of transfer. This is what your instruction book tells you to do. You may see it differently, but this is what I understand.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Never heard of anyone signing the original (actually, a couple of people that signed and dated it by mistake and then were SOL when trying to use it).

I just scanned in a high-res unsigned copy and saved as a PDF, then I print it out and sign in ink as needed. Never heard of anyone "posting it" anywhere on a wall, except maybe for one's personal aesthetic.

In that case you can sign it again with a blue or green pen when you need to use it. Also, there is always White-out. Jack.

 

[daekken]

In that case you can sign it again with a blue or green pen when you need to use it. Also, there is always White-out. Jack.

I usually use blue ink on mine to make it a little more obvious in terms of contrast with the black ink of the print out; probably not necessary, but not a big deal. I don't remember what happened to the people that signed their original without copies, maybe they used software to block out the signature or something.

As for bound books, just let the C&R expire and you're absolved of needing to maintain the records. Then just start a new book after you reapply with the new license. No need to turn over or hold onto the old records.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Like I said, make some copies before you sign the original. Set them aside to use when needed. Sign the original and keep it with your records. You are now a federally liscensed Collector of Curios & Relics. Make extra copies from your copies if needed and sign them at time and place of transfer. This is what your instruction book tells you to do. You may see it differently, but this is what I understand.

Not true for C&R FFLs and I did my reading in the actual regs, not an instruction book.

 

[ScottS]

I usually use blue ink on mine to make it a little more obvious in terms of contrast with the black ink of the print out; probably not necessary, but not a big deal. I don't remember what happened to the people that signed their original without copies, maybe they used software to block out the signature or something.

Well, it literally says on the license: "A faxed, scanned, or e-mailed copy of the license with a signature intended to be an original signature is acceptable," so while I wouldn't sign my original, it wouldn't seem to be a problem in most cases. I've never actually handed a copy of my 03 FFL to anyone.

 

[dhuze]

The original is not valid unless signed. In the event of a visit from the ATF, it should be signed. So make some copies of the original w/o signature then sign and keep it with your log book. Take unsigned copy with you to purchase and sign it at time of purchase. Make more copies as needed.

You do NOT sign the original. Please stop saying that. You only sign copies when you give them to someone. I don't know if you are confusing an 03 FFL with something else, but you do not sign the original 03 FFL.

 

[jaypap]

I've had mine since the eighties, never signed an original just the copies.

 

[rali]

In that case you can sign it again with a blue or green pen when you need to use it. Also, there is always White-out. Jack.

It’s possible someone I know was a dummy and signed the original. It’s also possible he scanned it and then used GIMP to remove the signature from the scan so he could print copies.

That guy often does dumb stuff because he’s in too much of a rush to read the directions. Good thing he isn’t me.

R

 

[PATRON]

Like jaypap,I had mine like forever make some copies,and put my original in my bound book.Most places will take an emailed copy.

 

[LLF]

I always write 'FILE COPY" on the copies I use to buy C&R guns. I also write the gun model and serial # on the copy. The original is unsigned and undated.

 

[looser38]

Ditto!

And wrt an BATFE audit, very unlikely but the rules are different. It is stated as a paper audit only, one need not produce any guns for them to inspect and you can request to do the audit of your BB at a BATFE office if you wish!

While I respectfully disagree in regards to signing the original, I'll move on. With regards to your statement that an audit is "paper only" I strongly disagree. I have in my hand an "OPEN LETTER TO ALL RECENTLY FEDERALLY LICENSED COLLECTORS OF CURIO OR RELIC FIREARMS" that clearly states the following: Reminder, "To ensure compliance with record keeping requirements, any ATF officer may inspect the inventory and records of a licensed Collector once during any 12-month period. The Collector may elect to have the inspection performed at the ATF office nearest to the location where the inventory and records of the Collector are maintained." I do agree that an audit is highly unlikely.


I mean no dissrespect here folks, but it's difficult to dissagree with what's clearly written in black and white.
Regards,
Mark.

 

[ScottS]

I always write 'FILE COPY" on the copies I use to buy C&R guns. I also write the gun model and serial # on the copy. The original is unsigned and undated.

I do, too. Although I don't know why I do that. I have a "stamp" set up with that in Acrobat. Gun to my head, I can't tell you why I do it.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

I always just take a picture of mine with my phone. Then if I ever need to print one up its simple.

 

[Len-2A Training]

While I respectfully disagree in regards to signing the original, I'll move on. With regards to your statement that an audit is "paper only" I strongly disagree. I have in my hand an "OPEN LETTER TO ALL RECENTLY FEDERALLY LICENSED COLLECTORS OF CURIO OR RELIC FIREARMS" that clearly states the following: Reminder, "To ensure compliance with record keeping requirements, any ATF officer may inspect the inventory and records of a licensed Collector once during any 12-month period. The Collector may elect to have the inspection performed at the ATF office nearest to the location where the inventory and records of the Collector are maintained." I do agree that an audit is highly unlikely.


I mean no dissrespect here folks, but it's difficult to dissagree with what's clearly written in black and white.
Regards,
Mark.

I always thought it was odd that they would only audit the BB, but that is what I recall reading in the regs back ~1999-2000. BATFE frequently supersedes what is in the Regs by letters, so that wouldn't surprise me.

On the other hand can you just imagine the chaos when a C&R FFL holder walks into the JFK building carrying 20-100 rifles/pistols??? Hilarity would ensue.

 

[MuzzleDiscipline]

US code 18 paragraph 923 G.1 (D)

At the election of a licensed collector, the annual

inspection of records and inventory

permitted under this paragraph shall be performed at the office of the Attorney General designated for such inspections which is located in closest proximity to the premises where the inventory and records of such licensed collector are maintained. The inspection and examination authorized by this paragraph shall not be construed as authorizing the Attorney General to seize any records or other documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If the Attorney General seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee within a reasonable time. The Attorney General may make available to any Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency any information which he may obtain by reason of this chapter with respect to the identification of persons prohibited from purchasing or receiving firearms or ammunition who have purchased or received firearms or ammunition, together with a description of such firearms or ammunition, and he may provide information to the extent such information may be contained in the records required to be maintained by this chapter, when so requested by any Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency.

 

[jaypap]

 

[Len-2A Training]

I stand corrected on the inspection. The "AG" they refer to is the US AG, so it would be in the local district office of the AUSA office I would guess. I still can't imagine anyone walking in with lots of guns in this post-9/11 environment.