1. If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

  2. Dismiss Notice

C&R gun turned 50

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Knob Creek, Jul 12, 2019.

  1. Knob Creek

    Knob Creek NES Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Location:
    South Coast Mass
    I have a Firearm I acquired through the regular FA 10 process. It is now over 50 years old. I’m going to sell it to a out of state FFL. Should I enter it into my bound book and do the transfer C&R to FFL or not? Has anyone else had a gun turn 50 and enter it into their Bound Book?
     
  2. RDG

    RDG

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,957
    Likes Received:
    745
    Location:
    Western, MA
    I would.... I don’t think you’ll find a definite yes/no answer but I think it would be wise to log it.

    In your bound book, I would log it as a “personnel collection” item under acquisition.

    But that’s just my option... hopefully someone with more experience like @Len-2A Training will chime in.
     
  3. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    50,885
    Likes Received:
    8,289
    Location:
    Escaping to NH
    BATFE answered that a long time ago.

    Enter it as from private collection in BB and show disposition as FFL to FFL transfer. Done!
     
    Mountain, jpm and RDG like this.
  4. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,212
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    Really?

    I can't remember the exact source, but I'm 99-44/100% sure that this is unnecessary.

    My reading of ATF documents is that anything that was *not* a C&R when you got it, or anything you got *before* you got your C&R license, should *not* go into the bound book, even if you get a C&R license or a gun ages into C&R.

    I think you *can* enter it into your book if you want to sell it to someone who will only accept shipments from FFLs, but if the buyer (or his FFL) doesn't care, you're not required to.
     
  5. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    15,489
    Likes Received:
    7,103
    I'll throw this in: How would they ever know??? Think of what would have to take place.

    First, the gun would have to be used in a crime somehow. A relatively valuable 50yo gun versus a 2 month old gun that said POS could get off the street.

    Then the ATF would have to do a full background check on the gun, chase it to that dealer, chase it to you (for what reason we'll never know), cross-reference that you have a C&R, realize the gun was over-50 WHEN you sold it.

    THEN they would have to try and jam you up on a questionable action that is ambiguous at best.

    (I know you've thought of all of this, KC. It just needed to be said. These laws are stupid.)


    All that said, I'd still put it in my bound book as well. ROFL!!!
     
    M125X and milktree like this.
  6. dhuze

    dhuze NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    8,467
    Likes Received:
    1,989
    Location:
    An island surrounded by land on three sides
    All you have to do is enter it as a disposition.
    If you had it prior to getting your C&R or it became a C&R eligible firearm it does not need to be entered as an acquisition, just a disposition when you remove it from your ownership.

    Also there is no line required for "personal collection" for an 03FFL, all your firearms are your private/personal collection you are not in business of buying or selling.
     
    M125X likes this.
  7. andrew1220

    andrew1220 NES Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2011
    Messages:
    11,131
    Likes Received:
    3,357
    Location:
    Glostah
    I guess I was misunderstanding/misinterpreting the C&R stuff all these years? I always thought the guns HAD to be on that C&R list? Is it that cut and dry where if the gun is >50 years old it's automatically C&R?
     
  8. CDSUSA

    CDSUSA Dealer NES Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    111
    Location:
    Russiachusetts
    Directly from the ATF website:

    Capture5.JPG
     
    CAR and andrew1220 like this.
  9. andrew1220

    andrew1220 NES Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2011
    Messages:
    11,131
    Likes Received:
    3,357
    Location:
    Glostah
  10. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,212
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    NO! This is not true.

    You MUST NOT enter any gun as a disposition if it is not entered as an acquisition. I'm very certain of that. I'll see if I can find the reference.
     
  11. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,212
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    A gun is C&R eligible if:

    It's in the big book of C&R guns

    -- OR --

    it's 50 years old.

    Anything 50 years old or older is *AUTOMATICALLY* a C&R gun.

    the big book has some things that are C&R that are *NOT* 50 years old. e.g. MBA Gyrojet.
     
    andrew1220 likes this.
  12. jpm

    jpm NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    5,232
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    This is the right answer. While you could just enter it as a disposition, if you get audited then the question will be where did it come from. Its better to just have the info correct in the first place and it takes no more than about 10 seconds to enter that it came from your private collection.

    Milktree, for something that does become C&R or already was C&R in your collection before you got your 03FFL, you don't enter it in your book UNTIL it leaves your possession either sold/lost/stolen, but then it must go in your book.
     
    pentium, gws1063 and Len-2A Training like this.
  13. gws1063

    gws1063 NES Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    Scenic Somerville, MA
    I was trying to compose a response, but JPM has put it more clearly than I was going to. The key is that any TRANSFER (in or out) of any item that would be covered by your C&R has to be logged. You don't log items already in your collection which would be covered by a C&R when you initially acquire the C&R license or items that "age into" C&R coverage while you hold the C&R because there is no transfer of ownership.

    -Gary
     
    milktree likes this.
  14. KBCraig

    KBCraig NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,695
    Likes Received:
    4,279
    Location:
    Granite State of Mind
    You must enter all acquisitions and dispositions of C&R firearms while licensed. This is a dead horse issue, settled long ago.

    If it's a firearm that you owned before licensed, list it as "acquired before licensed" in the acquisition field, and fill out the disposition fields as usual.

    If it aged into C&R status or was added to the list, list it as "attained C&R status after acquisition", and ditto.
     
    dhuze and Knob Creek like this.
  15. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,212
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    Can you cite that? It’s contrary to everything I’ve read before this thread.




    So, I’m sure you have a cite for this, right?

    You must enter all C&R acquisitions while licensed, yes. But anything you got before getting your license is not something you acquired while licensed .

    Also, anything that isn’t a C&R when you get it need not be entered. When it becomes a C&R, it's still not a C&R you acquired, it became one.

    Example: you buy a gun that’s just a regular gun, then the ATF decides it’s a curio (weird, famous maker, whatever) and adds it to the big book. It’s still only 15 years old. Are you saying the ATF could ding you because you didn’t enter it into your book? Are you saying you’re required to look through the big book regularly just to make sure nothing you own has become a C&R?
     
  16. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    50,885
    Likes Received:
    8,289
    Location:
    Escaping to NH
    Are you missing the point of the OP's question.

    I (and BATFE) agree with you as far as you took it. BUT when you go to dispose of a gun that turned C&R after you got licensed (or had it before), BATFE requires that you put it in the BB (disposition) and in the space for where you obtained it you can put "acquired before licensed", "turned C&R after licensed" or some-such to explain where it came from.
     
    KBCraig likes this.
  17. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,212
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    That's what I can't find a cite for. I've seen "enter it into your book immediately" or "as soon as possible" (for acquisitions while licensed), so where does it say you have to enter guns you got before you were licensed, or ones that *became* C&R in your ownership?

    It's the "you have to look at the book every time it comes out to make sure you know which of your guns are now C&R" part that seems implausible.
     
  18. jpm

    jpm NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    5,232
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    you keep missing the most important part of that statement which is WHEN YOU DISPOSE OF IT. Not when it becomes C&R, only when you dispose of it do you put it in the book if its not already there.

    You don't have to look at any book to know which of your guns are C&R, if they are at least 50 years old, they are C&R. If they were made before 1899, they are antique and don't need to be in the book. There's only a rare few examples that are younger than 50 but still C&R eligible which you need to check the book for. The book is NOT comprehensive.
     
    Len-2A Training likes this.
  19. PATRON

    PATRON NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2007
    Messages:
    4,615
    Likes Received:
    1,621
    This is my understanding of the rules,and what I have been doing for many years.Any C&R firearm that I have owned before my C&R only goes threw my bound book if I am selling it.
     
  20. one-eyed Jack

    one-eyed Jack Manufacturer Dealer NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    8,525
    Likes Received:
    7,972
    Location:
    Eastern Mass and southern NH
     
  21. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,212
    Likes Received:
    1,560
    Right, the book is not comprehensive, there are guns that are C&R that are not in the book.

    But there are *NO* guns that *are* in the book that are *not* C&R. Every single gun listed in the book is a C&R, even if it's not a complete list.

    And, you're missing my point:

    Say you have a gun. It was made by a small production one-man manufacturer. It's 20 years old. It was made by $someone_famous.

    Then someone else with a similar gun thinks it's *SO SPECIAL* they petition the ATF to make anything made by $someone_famous a C&R, because the gun's value is more to do with who made it than what it does. (One of the possible criteria for a non-relic curio)

    Now you want to sell that gun, which has become a C&R while you owned it, even though it's less than 50 years old.

    If you don't look in the book periodically to make sure that anything you sell isn't there, you would accidentally sell a C&R without putting it in your book, because you didn't check the ATF book!

    The argument, "that almost never happens" is a bullshit way to interpret law. Either it's a requirement, or it isn't. "a few rare examples" doesn't protect you from prosecution.


    The law says you must "enter into the A/D all curios and relics acquired after receipt of the Collector's license." (bold added for emphasis) That's a direct quote from the paperwork I got when I got my C&R. Anything that becomes a C&R was *NOT* "acquired after receipt".



    As far as the "when you dispose of it" part, why do you think this applies to guns that you were never required to put into your bound book to begin with?

    And how is it even possible to comply with the "...be recorded no later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition" clause for a gun that wasn't a C&R when you got it, or if you didn't have a C&R license at the time?

    The fact that it's literally impossible to comply with 27 CFR 478.125 for any gun that wasn't a C&R when you got it makes the the notion that you have to enter it into your book immediately before selling it ludicrous.

    That's why I'm looking for a specific citation on guns that you had before, or became, C&R guns.
     
  22. gws1063

    gws1063 NES Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    Scenic Somerville, MA
    Ummmm, cause them's tha rulez?

    Sadly, it is the responsibility of the C&R holder to comply with the rulez.
    You do not have to comply with recording acquisition of an eligible C&R firearm if you acquired it before your C&R license. You did NOT have a C&R at the time of acquisition!
    You DO have to log it when you sell it. Think *ownership change*, not status of the specific hardware.

    Yes, it *can* be challenging to determine if a firearm has made the list because it was made by $someone_famous and you sold it and should have logged it. I assume the jack booted thugs will be at your door in the morning. Probably not, but, by law, they should be.

    -Gary
     
  23. one-eyed Jack

    one-eyed Jack Manufacturer Dealer NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    8,525
    Likes Received:
    7,972
    Location:
    Eastern Mass and southern NH
    During one of my ATF audits the examiner saw my 03 taped to my safe. She said you have the 03, can I see your BB? No, don't have one. How long have you had it? 40-45 years. Have you used it at all? No. Why do you bother having it? Well, I may live long enough to end up in a town where the PD will want to see it to renew my green card. So far no one has given a crap about me needing it for the card. And the renewals for it became free like the LTC when I turned 70. All good things come to those who can wait long enough.
     
    Len-2A Training likes this.

Share This Page