C&R eligible guns not bought on C&R - handling when sold

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

This may duplicate part of another thread, but I wanted to get it clarified.

I have been told various things about C&R eligible guns and how they have to handled once you get your C&R. First is that you have to log them all in your book as soon as you get your C&R ( wrong in my mind)

The thing I am questioning is that people have said that when you sell a C&R eligible gun that you didn't user your C&R to buy, you bought it on your LTC either from a dealer or FTF in MASS, that you have to log it in your book when you sell it.

I had asked the BATF about logging C&R Eligible guns that were not bought using the C&R and the BATF Agent said only those guns bought with a C&R should be in the book, they are only concerned with guns bought with the C&R.
Does that also apply to guns that are sold? Any gun bought on the C&R and logged in the book has to be logged out when sold or transferred, but if you have a gun you bought before you got the C&R using your LTC, and now you are selling it, does it have to be logged?
My feeling is no, you only have to do the FA-10 and send it in, but what is right?

 

[Len-2A Training]

It's been a hot source of discussion for >10 years on national C&R eLists, etc.

Here's the most accepted procedure/rules on C&R FFLs:

- YOU are licensed as a C&R FFL and the laws apply to FFLs specifically, not to the guns that a FFL possesses for any reason. [e.g. Little known fact, any missing/stolen/lost gun MUST be reported to BATFE 800-number within x hours and followed with a specific form. Doesn't matter what type of FFL you hold or the status of the gun. If YOU are an FFL-holder, you must report. Great way to get airlines to be motivated to find lost luggage with firearms in it!! ]

- Using that interpretation, it matters not if you bought something with your C&R FFL or with your LTC (DL in Free America). It matters that YOU are licensed.

- As long as you remain licensed, ANY disposition of a C&R gun MUST be logged out of your BB. If it was a gun obtained prior to being licensed or it "aged" to C&R status while you were licensed, BATFE does NOT require it to be put in your BB UNTIL you dispose of the gun . . . and then the origin is "from personal collection". Likewise any C&R acquisition, regardless of how obtained MUST be logged in the BB.

Most BATFE agents are NOT familiar with the rules for C&Rs. That was highlighted when a C&R FFL was audited a few years ago and told that he MUST keep his C&Rs in a DIFFERENT safe than his "personal collection"!

If you want a 100% definitive answer, write your questions to the Technical Branch of BATFE and they will respond in writing. That's the ONLY answers you can "take to the bank"! They are the real experts on the nuances of the laws/regs wrt firearms.

Back during the Fed AWB a few people maintained websites where these letters were posted. Regrettably, I have found that most of my links to them are now dead. I guess they figured that since the Fed ban is over there was no need for the letters to be accessible, even though many of them covered things other than the AWB.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Fantastic, that is just the info I was looking for!

I wondered how to log where it came from. So if in the VERY UNLIKELY case I sell one of my children... I mean C&R eligible guns, I will log it into my bound book at that time and mark it as from personal collection. I have never sold an old gun, and only traded one to get back my Duty .357 from the guy I sold it to 26 years ago - oops, mark that 2 guns the Model 28-2 was sold 26 years ago and I traded back for another 28-2 a couple months ago.

That rule is not onerous, and easy to comply with

On the rule to report lost or stolen guns, even if I didn't have a responsibility to report, I WOULD, that way they know you no longer have it if it is used illegally!

 

[Len-2A Training]

On the rule to report lost or stolen guns, even if I didn't have a responsibility to report, I WOULD, that way they know you no longer have it if it is used illegally!

Remember, this is reporting to BATFE, separate from reporting to local PD (and FA-10 as well). I'm posting a copy of the form below. See the instructions on top of page two that states specifically that it applies to the collection of a C&R FFL (I would interpret that as even if the gun isn't C&R . . . there is more in the BATFE regulations where I found this gem).

 

[jdubois]

If you want a 100% definitive answer, write your questions to the Technical Branch of BATFE and they will respond in writing. That's the ONLY answers you can "take to the bank"! They are the real experts on the nuances of the laws/regs wrt firearms.

So what do you do when you have two letters from the FTB that directly contradict each other?

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Pick the one that causes you the most work and worry?

 

[Len-2A Training]

So what do you do when you have two letters from the FTB that directly contradict each other?

Punt!

It is my understanding that they will NOT prosecute someone for anything where they followed a written letter from the Tech Branch. So if they muff it, the burden shouldn't fall on innocent people who rely on their letters.

 

[jdubois]

It is my understanding that they will NOT prosecute someone for anything where they followed a written letter from the Tech Branch. So if they muff it, the burden shouldn't fall on innocent people who rely on their letters.

Yeah, I imagine they would have an uphill battle trying to prosecute somebody in this situation. But I wouldn't put it past them to try if it was politically expedient.

Pick the one that causes you the most work and worry?

I think you're not far from the truth

 

[Pilgrim]

It's been a hot source of discussion for >10 years on national C&R eLists, etc.

Here's the most accepted procedure/rules on C&R FFLs:

- YOU are licensed as a C&R FFL and the laws apply to FFLs specifically, not to the guns that a FFL possesses for any reason. [e.g. Little known fact, any missing/stolen/lost gun MUST be reported to BATFE 800-number within x hours and followed with a specific form. Doesn't matter what type of FFL you hold or the status of the gun. If YOU are an FFL-holder, you must report. Great way to get airlines to be motivated to find lost luggage with firearms in it!! ]

- Using that interpretation, it matters not if you bought something with your C&R FFL or with your LTC (DL in Free America). It matters that YOU are licensed.

- As long as you remain licensed, ANY disposition of a C&R gun MUST be logged out of your BB. If it was a gun obtained prior to being licensed or it "aged" to C&R status while you were licensed, BATFE does NOT require it to be put in your BB UNTIL you dispose of the gun . . . and then the origin is "from personal collection". Likewise any C&R acquisition, regardless of how obtained MUST be logged in the BB.

Thanks for that very simple explanation.

I don't understand why so many C&R holders can't understand the simple concept that it's the person that's licensed and you do not 'use' your C&R license when you choose to or not. You may or may not show the license when you buy/sell , but if you buy/sell a C&R eligible gun, and you are licensed, you log the gun...period.

Right, Jeremy?

 

[KBCraig]

Spot-on advice, with just one quibble:

- As long as you remain licensed, ANY disposition of a C&R gun MUST be logged out of your BB. If it was a gun obtained prior to being licensed or it "aged" to C&R status while you were licensed, BATFE does NOT require it to be put in your BB UNTIL you dispose of the gun . . . and then the origin is "from personal collection".

Rather than "from personal collection" (which is how a Type 01 dealer would log it), I have used "acquired before licensed". It's more accurate, and less confusing.

 

[jdubois]

I don't understand why so many C&R holders can't understand the simple concept that it's the person that's licensed and you do not 'use' your C&R license when you choose to or not. You may or may not show the license when you buy/sell , but if you buy/sell a C&R eligible gun, and you are licensed, you log the gun...period.

Yeah, but the thing is...

Right, Jeremy?

Hey, wait.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I don't understand why so many C&R holders can't understand the simple concept that it's the person that's licensed and you do not 'use' your C&R license when you choose to or not. You may or may not show the license when you buy/sell , but if you buy/sell a C&R eligible gun, and you are licensed, you log the gun...period.

I am only reporting what the BATF in Boston told me, they only wanted to see things listed in my bound book that I used the C&R for, that I gave a copy of my C&R. They told me I shouldn't log guns that I bought by only showing my LTC and the seller submitting the FA-10.

going on the logic that logic, when your gun reaches it 50 birthday you better log it into your book.

For now I will go with what the BATF personally told me as well as if (and this is a big if) I ever sell one of my C&R guns that was bought either before getting the license or with the LTC logging it at the time of sale.

 

[jdubois]

I am only reporting what the BATF in Boston told me, they only wanted to see things listed in my bound book that I used the C&R for, that I gave a copy of my C&R. They told me I shouldn't log guns that I bought by only showing my LTC and the seller submitting the FA-10.

The field agents are confused, unfortunately, and this is why there has been so much trouble with this particular question. I agreed with you, as that is what ATF agents had told me and others as well. But I wrote to the ATF FTB that Len was talking about and specifically asked them to address this, and their written response was as Pilgrim stated (which is why he was ribbing me above, as he had held this position all along). Somewhere in one of these threads from a couple years ago is the text of that letter, if somebody wants to go search for it.

 

[Pilgrim]

going on the logic that logic, when your gun reaches it 50 birthday you better log it into your book.

only when you sell it.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I will search for the letter from BATF that jdobois mentioned, and I will write to them myself to see if anything has changed.

A buddy who used to have an 01 FFL before Massachusetts changed their laws requiring separate buildings had an agent give him the lowdown when he got his 01, then 8 years later an agent said they had never done things that way and then went 180 on what was told.

It seems like the rules are often contractory or vague.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Spot-on advice, with just one quibble:


Rather than "from personal collection" (which is how a Type 01 dealer would log it), I have used "acquired before licensed". It's more accurate, and less confusing.

I agree that this reads better.

One question . . . what do you put in there when the gun "grows old" to become a C&R, assuming that you bought it while you had your C&R (but it was too young)?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I am only reporting what the BATF in Boston told me, they only wanted to see things listed in my bound book that I used the C&R for, that I gave a copy of my C&R. They told me I shouldn't log guns that I bought by only showing my LTC and the seller submitting the FA-10.

The field agents are confused, unfortunately, and this is why there has been so much trouble with this particular question.

A buddy who used to have an 01 FFL before Massachusetts changed their laws requiring separate buildings had an agent give him the lowdown when he got his 01, then 8 years later an agent said they had never done things that way and then went 180 on what was told.

It seems like the rules are often contractory or vague.

I don't know if it is poor training, agents winging it instead of querying DC for an answer, entrapment attempts, or whatever . . . but I've seen much too much bad info from BATFE agents both locally and across the country.

ETA: One thing that's become obvious to me is that agents are NOT trained on the differences between Dealer FFLs and C&R FFLs and thus try to impose rules for Dealers on Collectors too. This is based on reading results of C&R FFL audits across the USA within the past few years.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

i just slammed my right index finger in my PPK slide cut the skin right ooff blood every where i am typing with one finger now. smarts a bit, took a good slice of skin off. it is pretty dirty from the chamber. will teach me to clean betterr

 

[vellnueve]

I am only reporting what the BATF in Boston told me, they only wanted to see things listed in my bound book that I used the C&R for, that I gave a copy of my C&R. They told me I shouldn't log guns that I bought by only showing my LTC and the seller submitting the FA-10.

going on the logic that logic, when your gun reaches it 50 birthday you better log it into your book.

For now I will go with what the BATF personally told me as well as if (and this is a big if) I ever sell one of my C&R guns that was bought either before getting the license or with the LTC logging it at the time of sale.

This is incorrect. You need to log any C&R gun you buy. FTB > Boston Field Office.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I am going to start a second bound book since in my current one I have only put guns I bought when giving the seller my C&R, I have a personal log where I put everything, C&R and non C&R. This new one will be any C&R gun (including C&R eligible) I have bought since getting the C&R license.
For now I will maintain all 3 books, the one of all guns for me, I just enjoy reading it and look at the pictures of each gun, and the 2 C&R books,
I think that everyone is correct that all C&R guns since the license and then if a pre license gun is sold it is logged then, and that is the one I will show to BATF if they come in, at the same time since I already have the book I had been using I will continue it and just keep it with my personal log, extra work but fun.
I was going to contact BATF, but it sounds like I might get different stories anyway. I will have only the C&R book with all C&R and C&R Eligible guns bought since the license on display on my desk, the other will be in the safe.

my finger is still bleeding a bit, I was showing my son how the slide lockback worked and didn't stop the slide from slamming on my finger

 

[jdubois]

Here's the ATF letter:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...ed-in-C-R-book?p=567872&viewfull=1#post567872

my finger is still bleeding a bit, I was showing my son how the slide lockback worked and didn't stop the slide from slamming on my finger

Ouch!

 

[45collector]

I've had an FFL dealer tell me to not enter a C&R eligible gun into my book if I've bought the gun from an FFL01 using the FA10. He said it just creates confusion.
Who's confused?

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Thank you jdubois, I was going to say it says you must log a C&R gun rather then saying C&R eligible so it isn't a C&R unless you use your license, that is until I say the line "even if their Federal license was not used to acquire the firearm"
That pretty well answers the question.

I am starting a new bound book with that letter pasted in it and will write to get a hard copy from BATF of my own, and will log all acquistions since the C&R in it.
On dispositions it sums up what I thought and also in the acquired from using "personal collection before license" then will make sense as anything after the license is already in the book.

I am tempted to still keep the original up to date (with just the ones using the license but keep it separate) mainly because I enjoy the paperwork, which is why I have a master book that has everything.

Oh would antiques, before 1894 (?) is using 32 S&W or 38 S&W cartridges (I have several tip ups and top breaks) be logged, i.e. since the cartridges are still available would they be considered antiques?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I've had an FFL dealer tell me to not enter a C&R eligible gun into my book if I've bought the gun from an FFL01 using the FA10. He said it just creates confusion.
Who's confused?

Sadly, very few FFLs understand C&R FFLs at all. That's why a lot of them in the past refused to sell guns to C&R FFLs, some today refuse to sell "some guns" to C&R FFLs, etc.

Asking dealers and LEOs about fine points of gun laws historically gives one very bad info. I'll include BATFE agents in that "LEOs" group too based on what I've seen in the past few years . . . ETA: Make that MANY YEARS! I just had a flashback to when Ron Glidden had to correct Bill Pickett's bad info given out to FFLs and LEOs in two separate seminars I attended (where both were the speakers). [Bill Pickett was an BATFE agent who retired from BATFE and headed up CHSB for a number of years post-1998 before retiring from that, now he's a Constable in many MetroWest towns.]

 

[KBCraig]

One question . . . what do you put in there when the gun "grows old" to become a C&R, assuming that you bought it while you had your C&R (but it was too young)?

It can "turn C&R" not just by age, but also by being added to the list. For instance, ATF kept changing the status of Ishapore Enfields (from 2A only, to 2A1 made by a certain date, and finally just including all of them). Lots of guys bought them when they weren't C&R, but they became that way pretty soon.

I haven't had that happen, but I think I'd just use similar wording: "Acquired before firearm had C&R status."

 

[Red Lagoon 6]

I am only reporting what the BATF in Boston told me, they only wanted to see things listed in my bound book that I used the C&R for, that I gave a copy of my C&R.

Were you audited by BATFE? Just curious, has anyone else been audited/inspected recently?

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Red Lagoon 6, no I talked directly with an Agent at the Field office in Boston. However I have since found that virtually everyone has a different opinion.
in the post at the top of the page jdubois has a link to an actual letter from BATF that says (paraphrased) the day you get your C&R from that day forward you need to log every C&R gun you get in your bound book whether you use the C&R or not, and when a gun is sold that you owned prior to the C&R you log it in and out at that point.
I have added all the C&R guns that I bought since getting my C&R that came from dealers and where I filled out all the paperwork and went through a NICS check, ie didn't just swap FFL licenses.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Were you audited by BATFE? Just curious, has anyone else been audited/inspected recently?

A number of NES'rs were audited a few years ago, there should be a thread or two about it here. It was also reported around the Country by others who were audited on other forums/eLists at that time. Some BATFE auditors demanded some strange "compliance" things at that time that proved that they had no idea what the hell they were doing (treating C&R FFLs like Dealers).

 

[Mikecorky]

Question on a similar subject. Can I purchase a C & R eligible pistol that is not on the Att. Gen. approved list? Looking at a Polish Radom P64 Pistol - 9x18 caliber. [h=2][/h]

 

[Len-2A Training]

Legally yes. Outside MA, not a problem. From a MA FFL it's questionable if the FFL can legally do the transfer . . . a gray area that WE don't need to worry about.