C&R and Massachusetts Registration k

[hatrick]

I was at the range and met a really nice elder gentleman that was shooting a couple of really cool milsurps so we got talking and we got on the topic of C&R licenses and it came up that over all the years of his collecting he never registered anything with the state (either FA10 or through the portal). He has meticulously kept up his bound book but never knew he had to also file with the state. I was trying to educate him on this but due to his age he really doesn’t deal with the computer and I wasn’t sure what to tell him. He seemed like a super nice, upstanding guy so I feel compelled to help him. What should I tell him so he can make sure to register everything with the state? A lot of his purchases are well over 10 years ago. Just don’t want him to get in trouble or have problems selling his collection when that time comes.

Thanks

 

[wmass]

Statute of limitations and the rules of fight club.

 

[ranvette]

He could just start registering them now.You just leave the sellers spot blank anyway is how you do it.Really the only problem i see is if someone with a C&R sold these guns within the state to other LTC holders.That could be holding up a red flag.Or he could just sell them all out of state and start over again the right way.I am sure he is not the only fellow with a C&R that had no idea of this in mass.I never new it either until a few years ago.I would never sell any guns obtained with a C&R in this state anyway.

 

[Len-2A Training]

My guess is that most C&R FFLs in MA never registered any of those guns. Yes, required by law. He can register them.

 

[hatrick]

Thanks for the advice all... Len's probably right that most C&R owners in the Bay State aren't doing the State registration simply because they don't know they should be. I guess as long as you sell everything out of state and don't ever have a run in with the law then you'd be ok. I know my local police don't even really know what a C&R FFL is every time I renew and have to give the CLEO a copy of the renewal.

Do you think I should advise him to go back and register all his C&R purchases even if they are from years ago? I have no idea how many that is but I am guessing it is a fairly good number. Also, do you think if he does go back and register them all it would be a red flag when the Mass Firearms Registry sees a large number of guns being registered all at once by a single person. They would think the end of the world is coming to Massachusetts.... LOL. In the end, I guess I'll have to offer to help him if he does register them since he's not really into doing things on the computer.

Thanks...

 

[ranvette]

I would find out what the number is before determining anything.He could register a few of them here and there after.I certainly would not register 5 and 10 guns at a time.And based on what he has? If there is anything he would sell.Sell them out of state and thats it.I look at this as a law abiding gun owner has make a simple mistake.But what i think makes no difference.As long as he has not sold any in this state to other LTC holders.I for see that as were you would have a real problem.If it comes back to haunt him.

 

[PATRON]

I had to back out of a deal, because the guy would not do an EFA-10 with me.He kept telling me that we did not have to do them ,because our C&R covered it.

 

[76Too]

I've started a new religion where it is blasphemy to register firearms and is therefore a violation of my religious freedom. We're a subsect of Islam, except instead of Mohammed we worship James Mattis of Quantico and having relations with goats is strictly forbidden...OK so it's actually nothing like Islam, but you get the point.

 

[ranvette]

As far as i know if you bought a gun from him.You would just leave the seller blank and register the gun.Thats all you have to do with a FFL in the state.If you have a C&R and are buying a C&R gun.Unless there is something different C&R to C&R i am missing

 

[Len-2A Training]

As far as i know if you bought a gun from him.You would just leave the seller blank and register the gun.Thats all you have to do with a FFL in the state.If you have a C&R and are buying a C&R gun.Unless there is something different C&R to C&R i am missing

Yes, you are certainly missing it.

C&R FFL is MEANINGLESS under MGLs. One must comply with BOTH MA and Fed Laws. C&R to C&R means Bound Book and swap signed licenses and MA still wants the eFA-10 with BOTH (assuming MA to MA resident FTF transfer) parties info on it.

 

[ranvette]

Ok I hear you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hatrick]

From what I am understanding, the only time you leave the seller information blank is when you are making a C&R purchase where the seller is NOT from Massachusetts.

 

[MAJoe]

Do you think I should advise him to go back and register all his C&R purchases even if they are from years ago? I have no idea how many that is but I am guessing it is a fairly good number.

Honestly, unless you're a lawyer I wouldn't advise him of anything. Help and let him know the law, but I wouldn't start handing out legal advice.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

From what I am understanding, the only time you leave the seller information blank is when you are making a C&R purchase where the seller is NOT from Massachusetts.

In talking with the FRB, when you do a registration only FA10 you leave the seller info blank. Usually that is when you get something from out of state, but it would cover him.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Yes, you are certainly missing it.

C&R FFL is MEANINGLESS under MGLs. One must comply with BOTH MA and Fed Laws. C&R to C&R means Bound Book and swap signed licenses and MA still wants the eFA-10 with BOTH (assuming MA to MA resident FTF transfer) parties info on it.

Thank you Len, I have been trying to educate people about the requirement to follow ALL local laws. I can't tell you how many times C&R's have told me they don't have to do FA10's.
I actually do them (mostly) on C&R purchases, I always do them on sales, no if and's or butts since I want a paper trail leading away from me.

 

[ranvette]

Really i guess the best advice here is (unless you're a lawyer I wouldn't advise him of anything)

 

[Len-2A Training]

Really i guess the best advice here is (unless you're a lawyer I wouldn't advise him of anything)

I never tell people what to do. I explain the laws and sometimes tell them what I would do personally. What they do with that info is strictly up to them, I don't care if they follow the law or not as it is up to them and I've never been the "gun cop". I do get annoyed when people give people illegal advise however without the caveat that it is illegal . . . and it also violates the rules here on NES (that nobody enforces).

 

[jpm]

he's f*cked if his house is broken into and any of those are stolen. Or if there's a fire or medical emergency or any other kind of scenario where the authorities find all those unregistered C&Rs. All of them will be gone and you'll be lucky to not be a prohibited person afterwards. And one of the requirements of your C&R is to send a copy of the application and all renewal applications to the chief LEO in your town, so its not like they're totally ignorant of you.

Virtually all of the C&R holders I know do the eFA10 as required, and I do as well.

 

[hatrick]

Just to clarify things... I'm not really giving him advise more than I am trying to educate him and help him out. He's an elder guy that doesn't have the computer advantages we have so I am just trying to be helpful and give the guy a hand. He was shocked when I told him he had to do the Mass registration in addition to his C&R bound book.

Anyways, I talked to him again this morning and since I didn't want to flat out ask him how many guns he had, I kind of skirted around it a bit and asked in a more general way and it seems that he is north of 50 pieces. He does want to do the right thing so I guess the question is what is his best option? Should I help him register a couple a week through the Mass Firearms Portal or is it better to go a bit slower or faster. He wants to get everything on the up and up ASAP so he has no concerns but at the same time doesn't want to have a knock on his door either. JPM makes a good point that if something tragic happens at his home it could be a problem which he certainly wants to avoid if at all possible.

Thanks...

 

[ranvette]

There is a place called.Pack & Postal in Lancaster.He does a large C&R business.Mostly out of state.With a large amount of guns like that.I would sign the bulk over to him for now on consignment sales.Just a idea i wouldnt want that many to deal with myself.I have to go there this week to see him on shipping a P38 i am selling.So i will see what his take is on something like this.I am not giving legal advice either just brain storming here.I just know 5 or ten is one thing to deal with.But over 50 thats a lot.If it was me i would want most of them gone.He can replace the guns.But hes not going to replace his LTC

 

[hatrick]

Ranvette.... thanks that would be a big help. I'm pretty sure dumping everything he's worked to collect isn't an option.

I guess the other option is just to have him register say one every 2-3 weeks. It may take a long time but it at least shows he is trying to do the right thing. Tough situation either way and it is totally up to him. I am just trying to give him some information for options and potential computer help.

 

[BTSDOG]

I was at the range and met a really nice elder gentleman that was shooting a couple of really cool milsurps so we got talking and we got on the topic of C&R licenses and it came up that over all the years of his collecting he never registered anything with the state (either FA10 or through the portal). He has meticulously kept up his bound book but never knew he had to also file with the state. I was trying to educate him on this but due to his age he really doesn’t deal with the computer and I wasn’t sure what to tell him. He seemed like a super nice, upstanding guy so I feel compelled to help him. What should I tell him so he can make sure to register everything with the state? A lot of his purchases are well over 10 years ago. Just don’t want him to get in trouble or have problems selling his collection when that time comes.

Thanks

With all due respect, mind your own buisness, and dont worry what someone else (especially elderly) does, because most likely, they know more than you do.....

 

[MAJoe]

Just to clarify things... I'm not really giving him advise more than I am trying to educate him and help him out. He's an elder guy that doesn't have the computer advantages we have so I am just trying to be helpful and give the guy a hand. He was shocked when I told him he had to do the Mass registration in addition to his C&R bound book.

Anyways, I talked to him again this morning and since I didn't want to flat out ask him how many guns he had, I kind of skirted around it a bit and asked in a more general way and it seems that he is north of 50 pieces. He does want to do the right thing so I guess the question is what is his best option? Should I help him register a couple a week through the Mass Firearms Portal or is it better to go a bit slower or faster. He wants to get everything on the up and up ASAP so he has no concerns but at the same time doesn't want to have a knock on his door either. JPM makes a good point that if something tragic happens at his home it could be a problem which he certainly wants to avoid if at all possible.

Thanks...

Have you spoken to a lawyer about this plan? How would you feel if there are two options for this guy:

1) 70-year old retiree never met you or doesn't take your advice, and lives on happily enjoying his classic firearms
2) He sees you as a young guy trying to help, registers things as he should have, then gets his door kicked in and hauled off to jail because some guy at the range convinced him to register 5 guns a week on the eFA-10 portal.

If you really want to help him, find him a GOOD firearms lawyer, pay the attorney fees, facilitate the meeting, and let both of them decide what the best course of action is. Unless you're either 1) a firearms attorney or 2) work for the FRB and are going to turn him in if he doesn't comply with this plan...I would not convince him to do anything.

You've made him aware of the law and what need needs to do going forward for any purchases or sales. For the previous acquisitions, that'll need to be up to him based on a variety of factors (like statute of limitations for one).

 

[drgrant]

If his acquisition is past 6 years he's past the MA statute of limitations for paper gun crimes. Those aren't even worth doing.

Honestly this is one of those things that he's better off just shutting his mouth about and doing the right thing going
forward. I've never heard of anyone getting prosecuted under S128A/B anyways, and chances are any event that would lead to that, would be some other issue that would cause the guy to lose his LTC anyways, so the whole exercise (to me) is kind of a circle jerk of mindlessness.

If he really cares he should discuss it with a firearms attorney. I'm going to guess he probably doesn't give a
shit. (and I can't say that I blame him) If I was in your shoes I would have maybe mentioned the law, but if someone tells me they don't register anything, I'm not pushing, lol.


-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Tough situation either way and it is totally up to him. I am just trying to give him some information for options and potential computer help.

There's absolutely nothing "tough" about his situation, the Waffen SS aren't going to come out of the woodwork and audit his gun collection and go "HALT! ACHTUNG! NOTHING ZIS REGISTERED! OFF TO ZE KAMP YOU GO!" lol It's worth noting that something merely not being registered in the stupid database is not, by itself, some evidence of a crime having been committed.

There's probably dozens of C&R people in MA that have done the same thing over the years with no ill consequences. Some people just don't know the law. (and at this point, some others probably don't care... )

-Mike

 

[matt2491]

It's not illegal to have an unregistered gun anyway...

 

[ranvette]

Well there you go if its past 6 years dont do anything

 

[greencobra]

With all due respect, mind your own business......

glad someone said it, this ^

anyone comes up to me at the range and gets into my business i'll freakin' butt stroke 'em. don't assume every old guy you meet is mentally feeble and can't use a computer or doesn't know exactly what they're doing. my only regret is i'm not going to live long enough see the well meaning, young, smart ass know it all guys grow old and have people make general assumptions of them.