C&R and family firearms

[jakeroub]

I hate to ask questions if I can find the answers myself, but the Massachusetts laws are so messed up, and I don't want to do anything wrong! I have two things going on related to taking ownership of family owned firearms. Also, my C&R license arrived today, if it makes any of this easier!

First:
My wife's grandmother passed away a couple of weeks ago. In cleaning out her house (in MA) this past weekend we found a 1930s or 40s .22 rifle that my wife's grandfather owned. He died 12 years ago, and the rifle has sat untouched (and unlocked) in their basement since then. I have not taken possession, but did take it completely apart and there is no serial number, apparently they weren't required back then. An internet search of the rifle model confirms that it never had one. I would like to take ownership of said rifle. I have permission of my wife's extended family to do so. I believe I may just be able to fill out an FA-10 to register the gun and be done with it. Am I right???

Second:
My grandfather lives in New Hampshire and turns 92 next month- he is considering moving into a retirement community. He currently has possession of two .22 rifles. Rifle #1 he has owned for many years, and I believe may possibly be old enough to be C&R eligible, but I of course will need to examine it to verify. Rifle #2 my brother bought in an antique store in NH when he was in middle school (long story). Since we could not legally bring it home, my grandfather has held onto it for the last 15+ years. I do not know the age of this rifle. My brother would like to take possession of this rifle, which he should if he can.

With my grandfather's rifles, I had assumed having a C&R would make things easier (assuming both are eligible) since they are out of state- I thought without one they would need to go through a dealer ($$). Now I am wondering if they could just be registered on FA-10's, no matter if they are C&R eligible or not, which would be nice for my brother.


From what I've read in the forums FA-10's can be used to register previously unregistered firearms. Since the two in NH aren't registered in MA, wouldn't that work? The one in MA has no serial number and has been sitting in the basement untouched for at least 12 years, so I'm guessing that is unregistered.

What do I do? I've tried reading up on it, but can't come up with anything definitive! Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

[waltherlover]

For #1, you should read this thread:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/5804-MA-Gun-Laws-(Fed-amp-MA)-and-Inheritance

As I understand it, the executor of the estate can transfer the guns using an FA-10 form within a certain time period (two weeks is well within the period - I think it's 180 days).

#2

If they are indeed C&R, then you can buy them from him, just make sure that you register them within 7 days of them hitting the MA border. You'll need to put his information in your bound book - drivers license info should be fine.

Since they are long guns, if they aren't C&R, you can transfer them at an FFL in NH and then file the FA-10 within 7 days of them arriving in MA.

 

[jakeroub]

Hi Waltherlover,

Thanks for the reply. I read that post a few times before I asked my question. Schrivner says that:

IF the deceased was a MA resident, the name of the executor/trix can be used as the "seller;" else just file as a registration (recipient info only).
Provide the name of the estate, the executor/trix and the docket number in your cover letter to the CHSB.

My question regarding situation #1 is that I believe my wife's grandmother had her property in trust, so there is no probate court involved, so no docket number...


According to LenS:

You are "REGISTERING" the guns when you file the FA-10. The instructions for this are on the front cover sheet of every FA-10. You do NOT put down the source of the guns, just gun description and your info. Scriv has suggested including info on the inheritance (nothing in the laws require this), and some of us don't see it as required (feeding our enemies with less info is better than too much) . . . this is a legitimate matter of disagreement.

Makes it sound like I can just register it. As far as I know the state does not know that the estate has this rifle, especially since there is no SN.


On #2, I agree that if they are C&R, then its pretty simple. If not, I have to get my 92 year old grandfather to an FFL- might be a pain, but I'm sure we can figure it out.

I guess my questions are answered in the other thread, but the laws seem pretty confusing and no two cases are quite alike I guess! Don't want to do the wrong thing! Also, I think any purchases must be recorded in my bound book whether they are C&R or not, right??

They don't make it easy, do they?!

 

[waltherlover]

My question regarding situation #1 is that I believe my wife's grandmother had her property in trust, so there is no probate court involved, so no docket number...

This might be an issue, but as I understand it, with most trusts, there is a executor of the trust. In other words, someone must be in control of the trust at all times. More brilliant legal minds than mine will hopefully jump in on this.

I guess my questions are answered in the other thread, but the laws seem pretty confusing and no two cases are quite alike I guess! Don't want to do the wrong thing! Also, I think any purchases must be recorded in my bound book whether they are C&R or not, right??

They don't make it easy, do they?!

Welcome to MA - where legal gun owners commit felonies daily without knowing it. WRT the bound book, you *ONLY* record transactions (acquisitions/dispositions) with firearms that qualify as a C&R gun. This in itself can be a little confusing, but if you have questions, this is a good place to ask.

It gets doubly confusing since MA doesn't recognize the C&R as a federal license - so when you purchase or sell a gun that is C&R qualified, you have to do the same normal thing you would do with any other gun.

Good Luck!

 

[jakeroub]

Welcome to MA - where legal gun owners commit felonies daily without knowing it. WRT the bound book, you *ONLY* record transactions (acquisitions/dispositions) with firearms that qualify as a C&R gun. This in itself can be a little confusing, but if you have questions, this is a good place to ask.

It gets doubly confusing since MA doesn't recognize the C&R as a federal license - so when you purchase or sell a gun that is C&R qualified, you have to do the same normal thing you would do with any other gun.

Good Luck!

Confusing- yes! From what I read there seem to be a lot of questions out there about what needs go in the book. At a minimum I guess it is any firearms that were purchased using the C&R license, as long as you can prove other firearms were purchased otherwise. An example might be buying a 49 year old gun (not C&R eligible) then sell it a year later (it would then be a C&R gun). Since I would have a copy of the F/A-10 proving I did not use my C&R license buy it, then does it go in the book or not? (not looking for a real answer here- just a hypothetical question) I figure I'm better off putting it in the book if there is any question.

I haven't actually gotten my information packet from the ATF yet, so hopefully that will answer some of my questions.

 

[mx250man]

Any gun that is a C&R (by virtue of age or being on the C&R list) when you acquire it after having your C&R FFL must go into your bound book (regardless of if you actually used your C&R FFL to acquire it). Any gun in your bound book that is later "disposed of" must be logged out of your bound book. That's it. If it doesn't go in - it doesn't need to go out.

FA-10s and such have nothing to do with C&R transactions, and vice versa - they are completely unrelated. The ONLY thing a C&R FFL does is give you specific allowances with respect to FEDERAL firearms laws - those that govern transfers across state lines. It does NOTHING with respect to Massachusetts firearms laws. However, the Federal and MA laws together weave a tight net that makes many firearms transactions difficult, and having a C&R FFL opens some holes that can give some relief (such as being able to purchase/transfer non-roster C&R handguns from out of state, since the only MA FFL involved is yourself).

 

[waltherlover]

FA-10s and such have nothing to do with C&R transactions, and vice versa - they are completely unrelated. The ONLY thing a C&R FFL does is give you specific allowances with respect to FEDERAL firearms laws - those that govern transfers across state lines. It does NOTHING with respect to Massachusetts firearms laws. However, the Federal and MA laws together weave a tight net that makes many firearms transactions difficult, and having a C&R FFL opens some holes that can give some relief (such as being able to purchase/transfer non-roster C&R handguns from out of state, since the only MA FFL involved is yourself).

I just want to clarify this, as if you sell a C&R firearm in the commonwealth to another licensed MA resident, whether they have C&R or not, you still MUST complete an FA-10 to be in compliance with MA law.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I just want to clarify this, as if you sell a C&R firearm in the commonwealth to another licensed MA resident, whether they have C&R or not, you still MUST complete an FA-10 to be in compliance with MA law.

Yes.