Buying an Old Handgun?

[crispnipz]

Wondering what the law in MA is with something like this: Miroku Liberty Chief Revolver .38 Special C&R - Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com : 825630898

It is a handgun (firearm) so my understanding is that it must be on the EOPS whitelist (which it isn't). But this is quite an old gun, but as far as I can tell, not old enough for MA to consider it an antique?

I found this thread from years ago but it still isn't clear to me: 1972 pistol "Not MA Complaint"

Would this firearm be legally purchasable by someone in MA (and then transferred to them by an MA FFL)?

 

[Picton]

If it’s C&R OK, then use your C&R license and they can mail it to you. It arrives, you log it in your bound book, and you have like a week to EFA-10 it if you’re interested in following MA law.

If you’re not, then don’t EFA-10 it and take your chances.

Either way, getting it into the state on a C&R doesn’t need to involve another FFL. But a vast number of online sellers aren’t aware of that and won’t sell because MA. I, myself, don’t waste time with such sellers. There’s always another fish in the sea.

 

[crispnipz]

If it’s C&R OK, then use your C&R license and they can mail it to you.

Thanks for the clarification. I should have been more clear: Buying the firearm as someone with just an LTC, not as an FFL or someone with a C&R license. Are you saying that it would be possible for someone with a C&R license to import that firearm into MA and then transfer it to anyone with an MA LTC?

 

[Picton]

Thanks for the clarification. I should have been more clear: Buying the firearm as someone with just an LTC, not as an FFL or someone with a C&R license. Are you saying that it would be possible for someone with a C&R license to import that firearm into MA and then transfer it to anyone with an MA LTC?

That's precisely what I'm saying. Although, a C&R license is supposed to expressly prohibit you from buying and selling for gain; the Feds realize people FTF guns, but they can (if they wish) audit your bound book and will likely have many questions to ask if it looks like you've been in business, or anything like it.

But in general, if you're a C&R, you get firearms mailed to your doorstep. What you do with them after that is your affair, though you ARE supposed to EFA-10 it once you receive it.

 

[Waher]

The BATFE frowns on doing that. C&R purchases privately sold within a year to non C&R holders may be viewed as engaging in business rather than collecting.

 

[johnN]

that would be illegal for a c&r holder to do. go to your ffl and see if they will do the transfer, if not try another

 

[Len-2A Training]

The BATFE frowns on doing that. C&R purchases privately sold within a year to non C&R holders may be viewed as engaging in business rather than collecting.

. . . or worse, a straw purchase resulting in time in the Big House!

 

[Picton]

that would be illegal for a c&r holder to do. go to your ffl and see if they will do the transfer, if not try another

What would be illegal?

Taking delivery, or reselling?

 

[MisterHappy]

The BATF realizes that collectors will, from time to time, sell parts of the collection, to enhance it, but may not make a business out of it.

That's a hazy paraphrase of the C&R stuff I remember. C&C is not a license to deal.

 

[1776]

S&W Model 544, 44-40, The Texas Wagon Train

In 1986 the Texas Independence Association wanted to commemorate the 150th anniversary of the Texas Wagon Train. Smith and Wesson produced a very unique 5" blued revolver, named the model 544 this was chambered for the 44-40 WCF cartridge. 4,782 were produced.

Smith & Wesson Model 544, 44-40, The Texas Wagon Train Commemorative. Issued to commemorate the Texas Sesquicentennial (150th anniversary) as a state. Caliber - .44-40 Winchester, double action revolver built on the square-butt N target frame with three screws, 5-inch barrel in bright blue finish, six-shot fluted cylinder with a nominal length of 1.66", .500" target hammer, .400" target trigger, red ramp front sight and white outline rear sight, shrouded extractor rod, top rib, smooth presentation Goncalo Alves target stocks with S&W medallions, 10-groove serrated backstrap and forestrap, marked "1836 Texas 1986" on barrel.

They were the first S&W revolvers chambered for the .44-40 round to ship since 1940, and their collectible status has earned them a place on the "Curio & Relic" list from the BATFE.

See ATF P 5300.4, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide section II bottom of pg 28. Smith & Wesson, Model 544, "Texas Wagon Train Commemorative" .44/40 cal. 6-shot revolvers

If your in MA and have a C&R, it's a C&R to C&R transaction. You can then do an e-FA10 to register it with the state. If you don't have a C&R, it goes to a FFL to do a transfer. Check the CMP rules to see if they would ship a C&R to an out of state C&R holder.

 

[jpm]

. . . or worse, a straw purchase resulting in time in the Big House!

No 4473 involved in a C&R transaction so it wouldn't be a straw purchase from that standpoint, but it is against the rules of your C&R license to act as a dealer or importer which is being suggested here.

 

[dcmdon]

deleted because I was wrong.

 

[dcmdon]

For what its worth. Those Miroku's are great guns. A steal in my opinion. Although the auction you link to has the gun going to $260. I got mine a few years ago for about $125. Even still, they are very well made with great bluing.

Don't forget that Miroku has made the over-under Browning Citori for decades. From the Browning website, Miroku is the source for the following firearms.

• X-Bolt bolt action centerfire
• AB3 bolt action centerfire
• BPS slide action shotgun
• Citori over and under
• Citori 725 over and under
• Cynergy over and under
• BT-99 trap shotgun
• Gold 10 gauge shotgun
• BLR lever action
• T-Bolt rimfire
• BL-22 rimfire
• 22-SA rimfire

 

[jpm]

The other thing that nobody's mentioned is that pre '98 handguns don't have to be on any list or comply with any state regs.

That's why dealers can sell Gen 1 and some Gen 2 Glocks because they are pre-98.

But they have to be in the state already. If you don't believe me, try to get a Desert Eagle shipped here. Or a Python

 

[crispnipz]

For what its worth. Those Miroku's are great guns. A steal in my opinion. Although the auction you link to has the gun going to $260. I got mine a few years ago for about $125. Even still, they are very well made with great bluing.

Don't forget that Miroku has made the over-under Browning Citori for decades. From the Browning website, Miroku is the source for the following firearms.

• X-Bolt bolt action centerfire
• AB3 bolt action centerfire
• BPS slide action shotgun
• Citori over and under
• Citori 725 over and under
• Cynergy over and under
• BT-99 trap shotgun
• Gold 10 gauge shotgun
• BLR lever action
• T-Bolt rimfire
• BL-22 rimfire
• 22-SA rimfire

Thanks! I'll look into those. I'll probably go with a Miroku long gun, something bolt-action if I can find it. Partly because I don't yet own anything bolt-action and partly because I'm a nerd and love anything Japan-related.

 

[CrackPot]

The other thing that nobody's mentioned is that pre '98 handguns don't have to be on any list or comply with any state regs.

That's why dealers can sell Gen 1 and some Gen 2 Glocks because they are pre-98.

MGL 140 123 is about conditions on a dealer license. paragraphs 18-21 are the law that effectively covers the testing for "the list". Later in the section we have:

"Clauses Eighteenth to Twenty-first, inclusive, of the first paragraph shall not apply to: (i) a firearm lawfully owned or possessed under a license issued under this chapter on or before October 21, 1998"

So a license under this chapter would include a dealers license, ammo sellers license, gunsmithing license, a LTC or a FID. So general import of a pre-10/21/98 handgun would not satisfy this exemption to "the list". It needed to be owned under a MA license.



940CMR16 (the AG crap under consumer safety) has a similar date based exemption. Depending on which clause of 940CMR16 the enforcement date is 1/15/98, 6/30/98, or 9/30/98. This exemption is written as:

"shall not apply to the transfer of any handgun that previously has been sold to a consumer, was manufactured prior to the enforcement date" or substantially similar to that phrase

Glocks are an almost unique case. They are on "the list" so the restriction on dealers is 940CMR16 and not MGL 140 123. This means any pre-98 glock is ok to sell as long as it is used.

Generally dealers will sell S&W pre-98 handguns under the assumption that it meets the exemption under MGL 140 123 assuming S&W was licensed

 

[jpm]

Thanks! I'll look into those. I'll probably go with a Miroku long gun, something bolt-action if I can find it. Partly because I don't yet own anything bolt-action and partly because I'm a nerd and love anything Japan-related.

The new Japan made Winchester lever guns are really exquisite. Fit and finish on them is amazing.

 

[dcmdon]

Thanks guys. I apologize and have updated my post.

JPM - yes they are. I now someone who has one and he says its the best 1894 they've ever made. Except its made by Miroku in Japan. Ha.

 

[slap shot]

But they have to be in the state already. If you don't believe me, try to get a Desert Eagle shipped here. Or a Python

So, you're telling me I couldn't buy old police turn in Glocks from out of state when I was unfortunate enough to be a prisoner of mass? hmmm

 

[IPSC_DRL]

deleted because I was wrong.

I have been here for thirteen and a half years, and this is the first time I have seen this!


Good on ya!

 

[jpm]

So, you're telling me I couldn't buy old police turn in Glocks from out of state when I was unfortunate enough to be a prisoner of mass? hmmm

Glocks are different because they are on the roster, just not approved by the AG on the secret list, so many dealers are ok with 'importing' a used one. But something like a Python which is not on the roster (or an SAA or Desert Eagle, etc also not on the roster) can't come here. It has to have been here already, doesn't matter when it was made unless it was before 1899.

 

[slap shot]

Glocks are different because they are on the roster, just not approved by the AG on the secret list, so many dealers are ok with 'importing' a used one. But something like a Python which is not on the roster (or an SAA or Desert Eagle, etc also not on the roster) can't come here. It has to have been here already, doesn't matter when it was made unless it was before 1899.

That sucks. So damn glad that’s all behind me.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

I don’t have anything to add to what is posted above other than to second the recommendation for the C&R.

If you really want one there is one listed in the classifieds.

Bob

 

[JNewell]

unless it was before 1899.

In which case, no eFA-10 is required. Go back a year earlier and no 4473 is required. A MA-licensed FFL may or may not be interested in selling "antique" firearms without paperwork, although most people would probably happily mail a pre-1898 firearm to you.

 

[jpm]

In which case, no eFA-10 is required. Go back a year earlier and no 4473 is required. A MA-licensed FFL may or may not be interested in selling "antique" firearms without paperwork, although most people would probably happily mail a pre-1898 firearm to you.

Pre-1899 is the rule. Anything made pre-1899 is an antique by BATFE rules so no 4473 or eFA-10 needed. I've purchased such things from MA FFLs and all the paperwork involved consisted of a cash register receipt.

 

[JNewell]

Pre-1899 is the rule. Anything made pre-1899 is an antique by BATFE rules so no 4473 or eFA-10 needed. I've purchased such things from MA FFLs and all the paperwork involved consisted of a cash register receipt.

Federal and Massachusetts laws are not the same. It's correct that anything made before 1899 is exempt under federal and MA law, but MA law gives you another year for most purposes.

For most purposes under MA law, the relevant carve-out applies to "any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899" (or, put differently, any gun made before 1900).

Under federal law, the date reference for “antique firearms” is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898.

So a firearm manufactured in 1899 would be exempt from most MA laws but still a firearm for federal purposes

 

[jpm]

Interesting, thanks, I always went by the Federal definition. Why the feds don't do 1899 and earlier baffles me though. I'd love to know what the difference that year made.

 

[JNewell]

I have no idea, and the "in or prior to 1899" language isn't even consistent throughout MA law. In at least one section (the AW definition, IIRC?) it's just "prior to."