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Buyer Baware of Gartman Arms Co. Online Sales thru Gunbroker

LTCRN said:
If the daughter / owner is firearm knowledgeable and Jim Sheppard (sp.), former owner of Zero Hour Arms, is helping out, then something is very wrong with this transaction. Let's hope that the right thing is done without another gun shop being closed.
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Really what's wrong? daughter inherits business and hires someone else to run it. Happens everyday. The "right thing" is obviously debatable depending on what side you are looking at it from. As far as the shop getting shut down, do you really thing the place will get shut down over a disagreement on a gun that was sold online?
 
Moderator said:
Really what's wrong? daughter inherits business and hires someone else to run it. Happens everyday. The "right thing" is obviously debatable depending on what side you are looking at it from. As far as the shop getting shut down, do you really thing the place will get shut down over a disagreement on a gun that was sold online?
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What's wrong? According to the OP, the GB listing was misleading. If this is true then the right thing would have been for Benko's daughter, Jim Sheppard, and the OP to work together to straighten things out before it reached the point that it has now. Bad publicity / business policy does a gun shop "zero" good. A poor reputation can result in an owner shutting down the business because of a lack of sales / profit. The loss of another firearms shop doesn't help the firearms community one bit as stated many times before on this site. I hope this clarifies my original statement.
 
I seriously doubt a posting from someone out of state on this forum will get them shutdown. Like mentioned, there are more good reviews on GB than bad, plus people here have posted positive reviews.

If one unsatisfied customer could spread enough word here to cause that much harm, the posts where people bitch about Massachusetts gun shows would have shut them all down years ago.
 
Again, two sides to every story. The OP should have asked for more photos and a better written detail before bidding on an auction with so little information. Any concerns he had should have been addressed before he bid..... especially for an "as is no returns" auction. Would you buy an old car on Ebay motors without asking the milage or if it had the original motor?

And, this one deal won't cause enough negative publicity to shut down the shop. Another shop in the area is practically in bed with the AG, word spread all over the net, and they are still open.
 
SKS Ray said:
I seriously doubt a posting from someone out of state on this forum will get them shutdown. Like mentioned, there are more good reviews on GB than bad, plus people here have posted positive reviews.

If one unsatisfied customer could spread enough word here to cause that much harm, the posts where people bitch about Massachusetts gun shows would have shut them all down years ago.
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or many bad reviews....... middleboro gunshop to name 1 place that has it fair share of bad reviews....
 
Based on what I've read here, I won't do business with them.

"Not lying" isn't the same as telling the truth.
 
LTCRN said:
Jim Sheppard (sp.), former owner of Zero Hour Arms, is helping out, then something is very wrong with this transaction.
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Is he the guy that called the cops on one of his customers because he heard him talking about home made explosives?
 
So far , No response. The BBB says they have to give them 30 days and it is probably the same with the other organizations that I filed a complaint with. I would be very happy to report they allowed me to return this rifle and I would stop all this .

Jedman
 
What is the BBB gonna do if they respond or don't respond for that matter? Just asking is all.
 
Using social media is the best route to take.

Let people know who the shady dealers are.

That is a very effective method to punish the guilty.
 
Jedman said:
I would be very happy to report they allowed me to return this rifle and I would stop all this .
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Has anyone else had a hard time reading through his posts? These types of issues could also be from miscommunication. I'm really trying to remain open minded (and yes you all know I've had history with Jim's last place, I'm not going to try to hide that), but I just see so much fail on the OP's end. All I see is an auction with very little information, a bidder who's not happy with what he received, and messages that need to be reread a few times to figure out what he is trying to say. I've been on both sides of the counter at different shops. I personally wouldn't of bid on a 100 year old as-is "collectors gun" with the information given, and I would certainly requested more info in writing before bidding. Maybe that's just me though.
 
Moderator said:
Has anyone else had a hard time reading through his posts? These types of issues could also be from miscommunication. I'm really trying to remain open minded (and yes you all know I've had history with Jim's last place, I'm not going to try to hide that), but I just see so much fail on the OP's end. All I see is an auction with very little information, a bidder who's not happy with what he received, and messages that need to be reread a few times to figure out what he is trying to say. I've been on both sides of the counter at different shops. I personally wouldn't of bid on a 100 year old as-is "collectors gun" with the information given, and I would certainly requested more info in writing before bidding. Maybe that's just me though.
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I agree. I feel for the OP. How many warning signs were there? What if I walked into a shop and ask for item xyz...the shop owner says all he has is a crappy picture of xyz. You can buy it for $$$. I ask him some questions and he ignores me. On the picture it is posted "as is" and "no returns". The whole thing seems shady but I buy xyz anyway. Well, xyz is not what I thought it was...now I want to return it. Even though I was warned no returns and I it didn't seem right from the beginning...I still want my money back.

How much responsibility is the OP willing to take here? Would getting back 25% of your cash and keeping the firearm good enough? Or is the only way to resolve this is for OP to get full refund and return firearm? If this is the case, then I believe OP is taking no responsibility.

my 2c anyway
 
Royal said:
I don't think I've ever neg-repped anyone before... guess there's a first time for everything!
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So you neg rep someone for asking a question, without properly reading the post? I suggest you learn basic grammer to familarze yourself with the differences between a question and a statment
 
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Has the OP called and TALKED TO THEM? That seems to be the best route given the owners are not so internet savvy.

the obvious sign of trouble for me was it's an old gun that is "custom" reworked--not good.

yet, if it's advertised as one caliber and turns out to be totally different caliber then I'd say that the buyer is entitled to a refund because that's a clear case of misrepresentation--regardless of the "as is, no returns" disclaimer.
 
The seller did state as is no return,but that is with the info they gave about the gun.The OP states that the rifle was not in the condition that the seller stated it was in at the time of the auction. So they lied on the auction, and should return his money.Then agian I think the OP,as they say was thinking with his liitle head instead of the big one because he wanted the rifle real bad,and didn,t see the warning signs.There are many of a gun shops that threw the year have been outed by some of the member,most of them have come out and made it right because the care about the customer.We know that Gartmans knows about this because there are members on the forum that have told them about it.Still we do not hear from them,do they not care?
 
PATRON said:
The seller did state as is no return,but that is with the info they gave about the gun.The OP states that the rifle was not in the condition that the seller stated it was in at the time of the auction. So they lied on the auction, and should return his money.Then agian I think the OP,as they say was thinking with his liitle head instead of the big one because he wanted the rifle real bad,and didn,t see the warning signs.There are many of a gun shops that threw the year have been outed by some of the member,most of them have come out and made it right because the care about the customer.We know that Gartmans knows about this because there are members on the forum that have told them about it.Still we do not hear from them,do they not care?
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They may have concerns of their own. I'm not sure how they we're approached on this issue, but being on the other side of the counter many times, the guy may have come off very offensive and maybe the other shop just said screw you, we're not dealing with you anymore. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I've seen it before with others businesses. Again two sides to every story and I doubt we'll get the whole thing from either or both. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and it's easy to just defend one side or the other. At the end of the day we only have what information has been posted.
 
I sell a lot of stuff on Gun Broker,(reloading tools,brass,components - I am bendad97 there as well.). I go out of my way to be overly descriptive of what I am selling to avoid just this type of scenario. After reading through this thread, I am happy to say that it is definitely worth all the keystrokes, as I am fanatical about my feedback. I'd bet money that with the change of hands of the shop, this gun was one of those that was laying around and got put up for sale without the whole history being known. If it were me, I'd make some sort of attempt to make the situation right. As an example, I once sold a Lyman 310 tool that had the wrong die in it. I had the customer return the item to me, and I made them whole on the shipping both ways, plus I refunded the guy his money order fee. It was an honest mistake, but it was mine, and I made it right.
 
PATRON said:
The seller did state as is no return,but that is with the info they gave about the gun.The OP states that the rifle was not in the condition that the seller stated it was in at the time of the auction. So they lied on the auction, and should return his money.Then agian I think the OP,as they say was thinking with his liitle head instead of the big one because he wanted the rifle real bad,and didn,t see the warning signs.There are many of a gun shops that threw the year have been outed by some of the member,most of them have come out and made it right because the care about the customer.We know that Gartmans knows about this because there are members on the forum that have told them about it.Still we do not hear from them,do they not care?
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i don't disagree but I think the stronger argument to be made here is it was advertised as a 38-55 caliber and they delivered some other unknown caliber. condition can be subjective but getting a totally different caliber rifle than what was advertised is totally unacceptable. It would be like the buyer bidding at $695 then paying $500--not as agreed.
 
. After reflection for the past 5 weeks on this transaction many things come to mind, mistakes on both sides of the deal. As I stated before I did ask questions and made calls without getting my questions answered and still bid on the rifle. I had to make a decision to bid early as I was leaving out of town on a bow hunting trip and wouldn't be home or near a computer before the auction ended so I bid my maximum price and went hunting. I am quite familiar with Savage lever actions and after studying the 5 photos posted on the listing the only thing that looks out of place is that the lever was blued and the bushing/ screw that retains the lever is non original looking. I excepted that the butt stock was repaired and non original also but that was clearly shown and mentioned in the listing.
Being Gartman is new to online auction listing and this being a near antique rifle ( built 1904 ) really needed too show much more of the different areas of the gun and give more information on issues with a rifle that is potentially a collector type gun. A 1899 A model has a 26" round barrel and from the views of it in the listing the critical places where there is lettering ( left side below the rear sight and topside in front of the receiver ) are not shown and no mention in the wording about being rebarreled. The forend looks good from the views they show but if shown from the topside or looking at the front tip you would see the large gaps and being from a octagon barrel. They had the safety locked holding the lever closed in the pics, if you cycle the action the lever droops about 3/16" when the action is locked indicating much wear and this was not mentioned or clearly shown.
And the biggest problem is the bore condition, This area is where different people would grade a bore what they beleive it to be but when a proper sized bullet will drop into the muzzle without resistance it can't be called fine by anyone that knows what a bullet must do to stabilize.
I think the very least that the seller should have posted would be that very little was known about this rifle, caliber unknown as there is no stamp anywhere , non original stock and forend and that it should be checked before attempting to fire it instead of listing used not abused , bore fine.

After reading as much about fraud and sales that are listed as all sales final, no returns ect. I found there is a code of conduct that applies to all comercials sales called the UCC or Uniform Commercial Code. It states that a item sold by a description ( sight unseen by the buyer ) must be as stated or the sale is non binding. Gartman being a commercial dealer is bound to conditions stated in this code as it was made to even the playing field for all states in the US.

I do take responsibility for my mistakes in this transaction but feel that asking for a refund is not out of line with what I received in this transaction.

Jedman
 
You seem like a relatively level-headed guy acting on principal. Have you called Gartman back after this all transpired and spoken to Jim or Jeff maybe coming to some kind of mutual agreement? I'm just not sure how affective this current course of action is (posting on this forum airing your grievances every few days then citing lemon laws, then threatening more action, etc.).

The guys over there don't really strike me as the type whom react well to that kind of approach.

Of course YMMV.
 
Well, it has been 9 months since I last updated this thread. I did become a green member back in Feb. This bad transaction is now settled, just yesterday I received a check from Gunbroker for payment of my fraud claim. They have had the rifle now for the past 7 months and the whole process was very slow to get anything done.
After filing fraud cases with the BBB, Fraud.com, The Federal trade commission,and the Attorney General of New Hampshire, none of them were able to persuade Gartman Arms to except the rifle in return and refund my money.
Gunbroker.com has a fraud policy in place where they will pay up to $ 400.00 after all other legal methods have been exhausted. They sent the rifle to 2 gunsmiths for evaluation and they found many problems with the rifle. They did a chamber cast and found the rifle not to be a 38-55 as listed. The bore was extremely worn and there was a piece of broken cartridge brass in the chamber . Also all of the other issues that i had found before sending them the rifle. Gunbroker contacted Gartman about the gun and again they refused a refund so I finally got a check for $400.00. I am out about $ 350.00 on the deal but that was much more than the gun they sent me was worth and they were kicked off Gunbroker and ba61super is no more.

Since this problem started I have bought 5 more firearms from different online auctions and have been pleased with the guns I received. I have learned many lessons with this transaction and hope that those following this thread will be more informed .

Thanks, Jedman
 
EJFudd said:
This. The ad alone contains about a dozen subtle clues & warnings screaming (to me anyway): "Don't spend big money here without a whole lot more pix and info"! [thinking]

In (minimal) defense of the seller, the listing does say to call with questions:

Some sellers just don't do e-mail. This is apparently one of them. When they say that, like it or not (and I don't), they usually mean it. [hmmm]
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exactly, dont do email, just ask hillary. if its not in writing it was never said.
 
The only time I will buy something on-line that is "no returns" is if it of a trivial price, or if the condition is something that is totally objective - like "bad, broken, parts only"; new in box; as new without box; new old inventory; etc. which would give me the right to contest the charge as "not receiving what I ordered".

I read "no returns" as "I demand all of the power in this transaction".
 

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