BUIS question

[natf]

I'm considering what upper to put on my group buy lower and right now I'm looking at this one ->
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=271
I'd like to put a BUIS on it, and I'd especially like to get a bargain, like say a group buy bargain ending Friday. The problem is the ARs I see BUIS on have an unbroken, level rail on them and this upper appears to have it's rail and front sight rail section on different levels. To me that means a standard BUIS won't work because the two sights will be on different levels, causing the sights to be out of alignment with the barrel. Am I missing something? Do the BUIS have some sort of adjustment (that doesn't use all the elevation adjustments) to take this into account?

-Nat

 

[GaryO]

I have a Stag upper with a Arms Buis and it is set up so there is no problem

 

[MarkM]

The predator pursuit uppers are designed for varmint hunting with optics.

If you want to use buis and optics (eotech etc) you should be looking at something with a standard flattop rail.

 

[natf]

other uppers?

Any suggestions where to get a complete AR upper with a 20" barrel and full length rails? I'd like to be able to use this upper in 3 gun matches and not have to rebuy an upper later. A 20" free float heavy barrel seems to be the configuration of choice.

I realize most 3 gun ARs use optics, but I'd like to at least leave the option open to shoot it in an iron sighted division, thus the BUIS.

Thanks
-Nat

 

[MassMark]

I would define your budget and then check into LMT, Noveske, or better yet, drop Jon at Anvil a line and see if he can give you some direction....By the way, you have 24 hours and 30 minutes left to get in on the Troy Group Buy in the Members Forum...

 

[Dick Manley]

I would define your budget and then check into LMT, Noveske, or better yet, drop Jon at Anvil a line and see if he can give you some direction....By the way, you have 24 hours and 30 minutes left to get in on the Troy Group Buy in the Members Forum...

+1 to Mark is saying. Stay the hell away from Rock River, DPMS, Oly Arms, and Bushmaster. If you are trying to save some cash a Stag is a decent way to go. I have a 2HT and have had no problems yet.


-DM-

 

[Dan S]

Any suggestions where to get a complete AR upper with a 20" barrel and full length rails? I'd like to be able to use this upper in 3 gun matches and not have to rebuy an upper later. A 20" free float heavy barrel seems to be the configuration of choice.

I realize most 3 gun ARs use optics, but I'd like to at least leave the option open to shoot it in an iron sighted division, thus the BUIS.

Thanks
-Nat

If you want to shoot 3 gun with iron sights, get proper sights not something that includes more movement into the sight. You want something along the lines of an A-2 style rear, and the front sight mounted as far forward as you can get. The longer the sight radius, the better.

 

[Joe R.]

+1 to Mark is saying. Stay the hell away from Rock River, DPMS, Oly Arms, and Bushmaster. If you are trying to save some cash a Stag is a decent way to go. I have a 2HT and have had no problems yet.


-DM-

What in your opinion is wrong with RRA AR's? I'll agree with the Oly and DPMS but not the RRA. My RRA is working great and has been to a 2 day class and only had 1 malfunction during that 2 day class. My Bushmaster lower for High Power had only 1 major incident happen at Reading during a match that required an extra set of hands to help - it ended up being the Federal GM 69 grain ammo that a primer that somehow got loose and went up, not down.

That configuration of rails would be interesting to put BUIS's on. Most of the rear BUIS are windage adjustable with an elevation change if you flip the sight to the other aperture ( My ARMS 40A is like this. ) Some like the KAC and the Matech have elevation changes. With the proper front sight, you might be able to get BUIS's to zero using a sight like one of those. For the most part, that upper is a critter shooter in it's configuration.

(Sorry for thread hijack - personal opinions without saying why are a trigger button for me as part of a thread asking for help deciding. )

Joe R>

 

[vellnueve]

+1 to Mark is saying. Stay the hell away from Rock River, DPMS, Oly Arms, and Bushmaster. If you are trying to save some cash a Stag is a decent way to go. I have a 2HT and have had no problems yet.


-DM-

RRAs work fine.

 

[MassMark]

Joe - I can't speak for Mr. Manley, but here's my take for what it's worth. There's nothing inherently wrong with your Rock River Arms, or your Bushmaster for that matter. There is however growing concern (and notable issues) regarding their builds, (from out of spec lowers, receivers, chambers, improperly staked or not at all gas keys etc). I ran into one guy in Lee with an RRA upper mated to a Colt lower and he was not a happy camper. The fit was so tight as to be a struggle and the build quality was lacking - it looked thrown together and he was in the process of removing his RRA to go back to his Colt HBAR and that's where the differences in build quality became crystal clear. Do some research - you'll find tiers of shooters who are pleased as punch with their Bushmasters and RRA's. For the casual plinker, it may never be noticed that the carrier key is not properly staked. For others however, who pour ammunition through their rifles issues can and do arise. If you have the opportunity, lay a new RRA on a table next to a new Bushmaster, Colt, LMT, Stag and Noveski. Step away - look at just the cosmetic F&F - then dig a little deeper. Open the rifles up, look inside...You'll see clearly the differences in a spec AR-15 and a "commercial copy"....

In the case of Rock River Arms, I call it "The Vector Uzi Syndrome". Vector Uzis used to be as reliable as they come. Prior to the sunsetting of the AWB, buying a Vector Uzi meant buying a quality, reliable and tightly built carbine. After the AWB, demand skyrocketed, Vector tried to meet the demand. was not prepared for it and quality suffered. Threads started popping up about everything from rusty barrels, to out of spec topcover fit, to canted trunions, .45 extractors in a 9mm carbine, blast media in receivers - the list is nearly endless. I wouldn't buy a new Vector Carbine if my life depended on it. I think in RRA's case, they used to build a quality rifle one at a time. They became popular, advertised heavily and in my mind seemed to slip after their much ballyhooed DEA deal. Demand skyrocketed and in my limited experience with RRA's, their build quality slipped along with it....I don't think they were truly prepared to meet demand and what you have now is a manufacturer who is now off the throne and increasingly equated with Olympic, DPMS and sadly Bushmaster in the AR-15 circles...It seems even CMMG is spiraling into the sinkhole.

That's just my opinion - for whatever that's worth.

 

[Joe R.]

Mark,

I lurk the same forums you read. I'm a member of Lightfighter and I just started to read M4carbine and I'm aware of the build issues. I see the same members of all those forums so I know who is real and who is full of stuff.

I would love to be able to convince myself to spend the money for an LMT or Noveske rifle but not here in the PRM. If I get to a free state, I still would have the problem justifying that money as a casual user. If you understand what the information that they are giving, you can fix most of the stuff that many of the tier 2/tier 3 vendors don't do to their rifles. Yes, you will spend some money for parts, tools, and even a smith, but you can take care of what is wrong with the base idea. To have someone say that this rifle or that rifle sucks is a statement that you should just keep to your personal opinion - that was my point I was getting to. The original poster didn't specify well what he was looking for and DM's comment set me off.

Joe R.

 

[MassMark]

Joe - believe me - I get it. Much of my opinion is just that and also based not solely on what I read, but rather experience. I have seen some poor examples of rifles personally that are being sold to the public at a great expense. For a few dollars more you can have a better rifle.

I'm not going for Noveske or LMT on this build myself - I'm having an armorer build up my rifle while taking care of the small stuff on my own. What I will wind up with is a rifle built by someone who uses them for a living and at a cost lower than a Bushmaster or RRA. When my rifle is finished, I will have something I can depend on and not something I will have to "tinker with" to get working properly...

If you understand what the information that they are giving, you can fix most of the stuff that many of the tier 2/tier 3 vendors don't do to their rifles. Yes, you will spend some money for parts, tools, and even a smith, but you can take care of what is wrong with the base idea.

Joe - there is something so unilaterally wrong to me with that comment that I must respond to it. I'm not flaming you, as I believe you are entitled to your opinion. What I would like to know however is how you can justify to me, (or anyone), that it's somehow "okay" to spend hard earned money on a rifle, (or anything for that matter), that is not built right the first time. To spend nearly a grand on a rifle only to have to turn around and spend more money "on parts, tools and even a smith", defies all logic to me. It's what burns me about Vector Uzis. Some are paying $800.00 for these carbines only to have to send them often multiple times back to Vector to work properly. I have read about similar issues with Bushmaster and RRA. Please explain to me how that line of thinking makes any sense?

Sorry for the hijack, but this I have to know....

 

[natf]

OK, so there are some build quality issues from some vendors. I checked out LMT, no way can I afford them. I have a limited budget, I'd like to keep the complete upper and one set of sights (iron or optics) under a grand. Well under a grand if possible. I have no experience with ARs (and very little rifle experience in general) so I've been shying away from buying parts and instead have focused on complete uppers.

One problem I've been having is finding what I want. For example when I go to stag's web site they don't show any complete uppers with a 20" heavy barrel. I could research exactly what parts I'd need to buy in order to build what I want (barrel, upper receiver, handguard, gas block, bolt carrier and ???) but even then I don't know how much of my time and aggravation it would take to build it or how much it would cost to pay someone else to do it so I can't get a decent baseline to compare ordering parts to ordering a complete upper.

-Nat

 

[MassMark]

OK, so there are some build quality issues from some vendors. I checked out LMT, no way can I afford them. I have a limited budget, I'd like to keep the complete upper and one set of sights (iron or optics) under a grand. Well under a grand if possible. I have no experience with ARs (and very little rifle experience in general) so I've been shying away from buying parts and instead have focused on complete uppers.

One problem I've been having is finding what I want. For example when I go to stag's web site they don't show any complete uppers with a 20" heavy barrel. I could research exactly what parts I'd need to buy in order to build what I want (barrel, upper receiver, handguard, gas block, bolt carrier and ???) but even then I don't know how much of my time and aggravation it would take to build it or how much it would cost to pay someone else to do it so I can't get a decent baseline to compare ordering parts to ordering a complete upper.

-Nat

Nat - Give Stag a call. They will build you one. I spoke to Stag before I went my own route and was a credit card away from ordering. Very nice people, very knowledgeable - (my first call was met with someone a bit grumbly, but great after that). The will make you one to your specs....

 

[MarkM]

I've never had to tinker with my RRA or Bushmaster, the most I have put through either in a session has been a couple of hundred rounds, and if I ever need that much "in real life" then I'm doing something wrong

With the group buy and other things I will have 4 AR lowers to build into something over the next year or two, I plan on at least two of those being home built with better quality barrels but I can't justify the cost of a high-end custom upper considering the way I use my ARs.

 

[Joe R.]

Joe - there is something so unilaterally wrong to me with that comment that I must respond to it. I'm not flaming you, as I believe you are entitled to your opinion. What I would like to know however is how you can justify to me, (or anyone), that it's somehow "okay" to spend hard earned money on a rifle, (or anything for that matter), that is not built right the first time. To spend nearly a grand on a rifle only to have to turn around and spend more money "on parts, tools and even a smith", defies all logic to me. It's what burns me about Vector Uzis. Some are paying $800.00 for these carbines only to have to send them often multiple times back to Vector to work properly. I have read about similar issues with Bushmaster and RRA. Please explain to me how that line of thinking makes any sense?

Sorry for the hijack, but this I have to know....

This is how it is today, if I get your question correctly. Unless you spend the big bucks on the tier 1 manufacturers, you have the possibility to get a lemon. Now, the point I was trying to make is based on a rifle from these tier 2 groups that gets to you and has minimal issues. Let's take for example Bushmaster. You receive your carbine and find it works well and is accurate. You bought it brand new and you find that the buttstock isn't secure on the rifle. Do you send it back and ask for your money or do you: a) Let them try to fix it to your satisfaction because you spent big bucks on the gun or b) you know that Bushy uses commercial buffer tubes on their rifles so you spend some cash and replace the stock tube with a mil-spec and while you're at it, a better stock option. It's your choice but I don't lose my head for that or lose it if the bolt carrier key comes loose and the rifle starts single-shotting. A hammer and chisel or a MOWAC's tool will fix this.

Yes, I'm upset that makers in the tier 2 and lower levels are putting out crap for big bucks and are still in business. That stuff with the Vector Arms is peanuts compared to others - can we say Century Arms CETME's ? Did you ever talk to anybody that had to send it back numerous times and still ended up with another rifle because it couldn't be fixed? The point I was trying to make is that so much is known about the AR system that if you get a rifle that isn't perfect, maybe it's worth it to take care of it yourself to fix/correct something simple. If that repair goes up over the cost of an LMT/Noveske/Vltor, maybe the wrong choice was made. Now what happens when that rifle from the 3 listed above isn't right out of the box and the guy with the Stag/RRA/Bushy rifle is running great and is laughing at you?

I don't take too many things wrong unless someone makes it personal. The only way to get things out is to have a discussion without all the baggage in the way.

Back to your regular scheduled topic at this time...

Joe R>

 

[vellnueve]

My dad has a RRA M4 copy and a Bushmaster upper on a RRA lower. No problems whatsoever with either one.