Building with a satellite college in it

usp45ct

NES Member
Rating - 100%
23   0   0
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
6,139
Likes
2,586
Location
Western Ma
So UMASS started renting space in what used to be Batstate West. They call it UMASS springfield. If I go to Baystate west and I am carrying, is the office considered cMpus, the building consodered a campus, or neither as it is patrolled by SPD and not UMass police?
 
Rating - 76.9%
10   3   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2011
Messages
608
Likes
195
Location
MetroWest Boston
The law says "school grounds". It's up to the LEO, DA, judge and jury to decide what that means.

The part of the building rented by the school is clearly "school grounds". It can be tough to know exactly where the lines are unless you have access to the rental paperwork and perhaps a building blueprint.

Sometimes schools own roads, parks, and real estate that they rent out to other businesses. It can be very hard to tell what is and is not "school grounds".

The LEOs know exactly where the school grounds are in their areas. If they decide to stop you, they sometimes wait until you're on school grounds, and pull you over there. If they find something, they have more to charge you with.

Yes this is totally ridiculous.
 

usp45ct

NES Member
Rating - 100%
23   0   0
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
6,139
Likes
2,586
Location
Western Ma
Thanks for the reply. The building in question is an office building of say 15-20 floors. The " school" is 3 offices on one floor.
 

Darksideblues42

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
15   0   0
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
3,106
Likes
3,281
Location
Hudson, MA
This is exactly the sort of thing that makes laws seem arbitrary. If I go into a building tomorrow and all is well, but next week, unbeknownst to me, a school starts holding classes there (as has happened in the past in my area with alternative schools for troubled and at risk kids) does that mean it should be an insta-felony for me to have a firearm on my person in the building, especially if I was unaware? I know that the onus is on me to be aware of my surroundings and where it is permissible and impermissible to carry, but a mixed use building with new tenants is a scary situation to have to worry about.
 

Broc

NES Member
Rating - 100%
14   0   0
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
47,168
Likes
87,118
Ask the School to put it on writing. If they ask why, tell them it's because you want to know if you will be affected by crap the school decides to do.
 

Broc

NES Member
Rating - 100%
14   0   0
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
47,168
Likes
87,118
Thanks for the reply. The building in question is an office building of say 15-20 floors. The " school" is 3 offices on one floor.

Bridgewater State University...the buildings are part of BSU, the sidewalks are part of the town. You can carry on the sidewalks owned by the town.

In your case, it will depends on who owns what. It could be that only 3 floors are part of the university, and everything else is not considered part of the school.
 
Rating - 100%
21   0   0
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
8,922
Likes
1,397
Location
in a building
This is exactly the sort of thing that makes laws seem arbitrary. If I go into a building tomorrow and all is well, but next week, unbeknownst to me, a school starts holding classes there (as has happened in the past in my area with alternative schools for troubled and at risk kids) does that mean it should be an insta-felony for me to have a firearm on my person in the building, especially if I was unaware? I know that the onus is on me to be aware of my surroundings and where it is permissible and impermissible to carry, but a mixed use building with new tenants is a scary situation to have to worry about.

Make laws seem arbitrary? My friend, 99% (at least) of the laws on the books are arbitrary. Without clear articulations for why the laws should be the way they are, and proof to back said reasons up, a law is arbitrary. Since laws are usually based on feelings and not study, that makes them arbitrary.
 

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.6%
73   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
55,490
Likes
17,074
Location
NH
Same questions come up about ER rooms and collage based medical hospitals, its another grey area, just tuck it good!

Jason.

NOT at all!

If you used that theory my PCP's office would be off-limits. He's a cheap SOB, so he brings in medical interns who work a few weeks in a medical office as part of their education to get a certificate from a local technical school (med techs). Every few weeks there are new faces there (that he doesn't have to pay).

We've exhausted this subject extensively before numerous times here.

I challenge you to walk into BU Medical School from BMC!!! I've been there on business (serving legal papers) and escorted by a BU Police Lt. He had to use his all-access cardkey about 8 or 9 times to get me into the building I was headed to. No way in hell you wander in there "accidentally" from the hospital.

-----------

Now to the OP's question:

IANAL but it would be a hard sell to claim an entire building is a "school" due to 3 offices on one out of 15 floors.

BU and NU (in particular) own a lot of real estate in Boston. Some of it is leased out to commercial enterprises that have nothing to do with the school but are a source of income for the college. Again IANAL but think it would be a very hard sell to declare these premises as a "school" wrt forbidden places.

The particular area used by a school for school purposes would indeed be a forbidden place, anywhere else if it were me, I would not concern myself about it. YMMV
 
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
44,531
Likes
27,439
BU and NU (in particular) own a lot of real estate in Boston. Some of it is leased out to commercial enterprises that have nothing to do with the school but are a source of income for the college. Again IANAL but think it would be a very hard sell to declare these premises as a "school" wrt forbidden places.

The plan for the Mass Pike Allston/Brighton exit (near the CSX rail yard) is to straighten it out and use an easement on land owned by Harvard. I doubt that, in practice, this will be considered the buildings or grounds of a school for the purpose of 269-10j.
 

Quiet

Banned
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
9,654
Likes
1,804
Location
2122 N. Clark St.
Just for fun, let me try a closing argument.

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I find it hard to believe that the defendant, familiar with all of the rules and self-admittedly complex laws concerning gun ownership, failed to understand that the "University of Massachusetts Medical Center" was part of a school campus. The medical students are there to learn, it is their labratory, their classroom. It is a required part of their curriculum, they can't avoid it. But the defendant could have avoided coming into that clinic with his loaded weapon putting them all in danger and contrary to the laws which he agreed to when he applied to be bound by them."

You know, just for fun.
 

Jason m

NES Member
Rating - 100%
33   0   0
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
2,822
Likes
3,591
Location
Central Mass
Just for fun, let me try a closing argument.

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I find it hard to believe that the defendant, familiar with all of the rules and self-admittedly complex laws concerning gun ownership, failed to understand that the "University of Massachusetts Medical Center" was part of a school campus. The medical students are there to learn, it is their labratory, their classroom. It is a required part of their curriculum, they can't avoid it. But the defendant could have avoided coming into that clinic with his loaded weapon putting them all in danger and contrary to the laws which he agreed to when he applied to be bound by them."

You know, just for fun.

This is why IMO its a very grey area. Len_2A you are probably right and in a more open, free state I wouldn't think about as much, but you get six on the fences juror's and they will hang ya in this state and forget about the judge he will let all those hate questions stand and drop down the max sentence or at least make it so you/I will never have our right to carry again.

Again I agree with you but don't want to chance my LTC.

Jason.
 
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,983
Likes
3,536
Location
Leoburg/Fitchminster area
True. But if you ever have cause to draw, it would be good to know where the school grounds are. It's part of the terrain, just like cover, concealment, safe backstops innocent bystanders and fields of fire.
You plug anybody with your gat in this state your goose is cooked anyway. It took 6 mos for that housing authority cop to get cleared for the shooting at MGH and he saved a doc's life and had special police status. I figure whether or not I'm on school property or not is gonna be one of the least of my worries if I ever have to use lethal force especially in Boston. Oh sure some peeps get a no bill from a grand jury but I figure it will go down hard on me. I'd only go that route to save my life or the life of a loved one and only as a very last resort
 
Last edited:

SpaceCritter

NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
26,828
Likes
33,228
Location
In Orbit
Ask the School to put it on writing. If they ask why, tell them it's because you want to know if you will be affected by crap the school decides to do.

Heh. I was doing some work years ago for a branch of the Connecticut Community College system. Part of this meant my company needed to sign onto Johnny Rowland's EO#16. We had some concerns, as how it applied, and expressed to management at the CC we were referring the matter to our attorney for review. Holy crap! The SHTF and I was told later (via a colleague) that they were contemplating considering me a potentially dangerous person! For contacting my lawyer!! Over a clause in a contract!!! (It should go without saying that, despite finishing out that contract, I don't work for the State of Connecticut any longer. 8^)
 
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
44,531
Likes
27,439
It took 6 mos for that housing authority cop to get cleared for the shooting at MGH and he saved a doc's life and had special police status.
I know it took 6 months to clear him, but was he disarmed, required to post bail, and/or removed from his job during that period of time?

The only thing that kept the media from going into a fit of extreme cognitive dissonance was the ability to add "special police officer" to the news reports.
 

Garys

NES Member
Rating - 100%
94   0   0
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
21,026
Likes
6,623
Location
Stoughton
We've exhausted this subject extensively before numerous times here. [/QUOTE}

NO topic is ever exhausted on NES! [wink]

I challenge you to walk into BU Medical School from BMC!!! I've been there on business (serving legal papers) and escorted by a BU Police Lt. He had to use his all-access cardkey about 8 or 9 times to get me into the building I was headed to. No way in hell you wander in there "accidentally" from the hospital.

It used to be fairly simple, but I haven't done it in years. There were signs posted that warned people that they were leaving one and entering the other. Different police forces (security in the hospital, BUPD in the medical school), but it wasn't hard to walk from one to the other. I probably used my ID, but it was so automatic that I can't say for sure.
 
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,983
Likes
3,536
Location
Leoburg/Fitchminster area
I know it took 6 months to clear him, but was he disarmed, required to post bail, and/or removed from his job during that period of time? The only thing that kept the media from going into a fit of extreme cognitive dissonance was the ability to add "special police officer" to the news reports.
Your point? In a free state he wouldn't even have had to go thru the process of an investigation and wait 6 mos, 6 uncertain mos to see what BPD and Suffolk Co DA were going to do. Chances are he would have been cleared within 48 hours to a week in many jurisdictions.
 

Garys

NES Member
Rating - 100%
94   0   0
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
21,026
Likes
6,623
Location
Stoughton
Your point? In a free state he wouldn't even have had to go thru the process of an investigation and wait 6 mos, 6 uncertain mos to see what BPD and Suffolk Co DA were going to do. Chances are he would have been cleared within 48 hours to a week in many jurisdictions.

Do you remember the guy in NH who got in a gun fight with his wife and killed her about five years or so ago? I knew them both and he told me that he had to wait six months for the DA to decide not to prosecute him. I know it wasn't a clear cut decision, but there was a lot of evidence from the beginning that it was self defense.

No doubt that MA goes overboard in that regard, but there is some degree of risk in most states if you have to shoot in self defense.
 
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
44,531
Likes
27,439
Your point?
I wasn't trying to make a point.

I do not know the answer to any of the questions I posed, and was just curious.

Chances are he would have been cleared within 48 hours to a week in many jurisdictions.
Back in the early/mid 80's, one of the members in a gun club I was a member of was (Rochester, NY area) in the news for shooting someone who held him up - and the corpus delecti was found with exactly what the shooter reported being taken in the holdup (cash, checks, etc.).

I didn't really know him well, but I met him at the range 3 weeks later - at which time he had already been cleared and had his carry permit and gun returned.
 
Last edited:

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.6%
73   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
55,490
Likes
17,074
Location
NH
I know it took 6 months to clear him, but was he disarmed, required to post bail, and/or removed from his job during that period of time?

The only thing that kept the media from going into a fit of extreme cognitive dissonance was the ability to add "special police officer" to the news reports.

Rob, from what I read of the incident:

- His guns were taken along with his LTC.
- He lost his job.
- He was living with his parents during those 6 months. [Unsure where he lived prior to the incident, but I understand that he had no job during that time.]

I'd call it typical Mass way of dealing with these things. They will punish you one way or another.
 

Quiet

Banned
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
9,654
Likes
1,804
Location
2122 N. Clark St.
Rob, from what I read of the incident:

- His guns were taken along with his LTC.
- He lost his job.
- He was living with his parents during those 6 months. [Unsure where he lived prior to the incident, but I understand that he had no job during that time.]

I'd call it typical Mass way of dealing with these things. They will punish you one way or another.

Seems like he should have had some financial support from the 2A community, or at least a GoFundMe page (had they existed at the time).

I wonder if it's too late
 

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.6%
73   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
55,490
Likes
17,074
Location
NH
Seems like he should have had some financial support from the 2A community, or at least a GoFundMe page (had they existed at the time).

I wonder if it's too late

My understanding is that he is now a genuine JBT, having joined the MA State Police as a Trooper!
 
Top Bottom