Buddy was just denied his first purchase for an 8 year old possession charge

[Amputee Marksman]

Was he here in MA? He was denied a purchase (background check = FBI denied him) and if he was in MA then we need to assume he had either and FID or LTC. That means someone in MA issued it to him. Would be interesting to hear if he had to jump through hoops to get the FID or LTC.

 

[AntiHippie]

A delay on a purchase is Fed not MA.

Correct, but source records are from MA. IOW, NICS delays me based on what I assume are MA records that were not accurately "closed" or whatever it's called at the conclusion of some minor dumb shit I did back in the 90's.

Edit: I'm guessing/assuming this is what causes me a 100% delay rate.

 

[42!]

Correct, but source records are from MA. IOW, NICS delays me based on what I assume are MA records that were not accurately "closed" or whatever it's called at the conclusion of some minor dumb shit I did back in the 90's.

Edit: I'm guessing/assuming this is what causes me a 100% delay rate.

assuming anything is a bad idea, find out what the issue is and address it. anything else is just possing into the wind.

 

[GlockJock]

("His lawyer repeatedly assured him that after he did the...")

Ugh. If I had a sawbuck for every time I've heard a (bad) story that contains the term "his lawyer repeatedly assured him/her..."? I'd be lounging in my hammock on the coast of somewhere beautiful right now as I'm typing this.. (instead of trudging off to work)..

Just sayin'

 

[GlockJock]

I got arrested for selling a $25 bag of mushrooms back in the early 80's in Albuquerque.
I pleaded Guilty, and the judge gave me a differed sentence. I had to go to the probation office every month. My probation officer was also a Vietnam Vet, a former Marine.
All he did every time I showed up was yawn, and take my check for 40 bucks and give me a receipt. After six month, he told me I didn't have to come back,

A couple of months later I got a letter from the courts saying the charges were "Dismissed with Prejudice."

I can buy and own a firearm back in New Mexico. I am not a "Prohibited Person" as far as the ATF goes.

But when I moved up here to MA 12 years ago, I couldn't even get an FID card!

"Hmmm...Mushrooms?..Portobello or Shiitake??.. And you'd better think hard about your answer before you say it, buster..."

(Just sayin')

 

[allen-1]

Your buddies first step should be to contact the FBI about what is in their system.

Find out what's in there.

CWF is a Mass term. Its used in other states, but may not be the situation in FL. So the next thing is to find out what happens to cases where an accused person completes all the requirements for dismissal of charges.

If all looks good, the next step may be to get him a Unique Personal Identification Number (UPIN) if he continues to get denied. This is typically used if your name is similar to a felon's and you are continually "delayed". But it could be used here to sidestep bad records on his actual past.

I can speak of CT as an example. In CT its called Accelerated Rehabilitation, or AR. This is offered to first time offenders of minor offenses specifically so they don't end up with a record for minor indiscretions.

The judge orders the terms of the AR. The accused meets the terms. The prosecutor nolle's the charges. After 13 months (I believe) the charges are dismissed, and here's the key part, ALL RECORDS OF THE ARREST and prosecution are purged from all reporting systems. The only records that remain are with the administrators of the AR program so that if he is charged again, they can see that he was already cut a deal.

In CT once charges are dismissed or the person is found "not guilty" all records associated with the arrest, prosecution, etc must be destroyed. Its the law. I was arrested in college and the charges were dismissed "with prejudice". The judge quite literally said to me "this did NOT happen. If you are ever asked if you were arrested, or charged, or defended yourself, you can legally say NO".

Don

p.s. https://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_961a.htm

As Don says above:
I can speak of CT as an example. In CT its called Accelerated Rehabilitation, or AR. This is offered to first time offenders of minor offenses specifically so they don't end up with a record for minor indiscretions.

The judge orders the terms of the AR. The accused meets the terms. The prosecutor nolle's the charges. After 13 months (I believe) the charges are dismissed, and here's the key part, ALL RECORDS OF THE ARREST and prosecution are purged from all reporting systems. The only records that remain are with the administrators of the AR program so that if he is charged again, they can see that he was already cut a deal.

In CT once charges are dismissed or the person is found "not guilty" all records associated with the arrest, prosecution, etc must be destroyed. Its the law. I was arrested in college and the charges were dismissed "with prejudice". The judge quite literally said to me "this did NOT happen. If you are ever asked if you were arrested, or charged, or defended yourself, you can legally say NO".

I'm a beneficiary/example of this. I had multiple charges laid against me that were nolled. Consequently I am legally able to state that I've never been arrested. I can also more accurately state that I've never been convicted. I've had multiple background checks run, and never had a problem. I currently hold firearm permits from CT, GA, NH, VA, FL and UT.

In my case I actually had my CT license revoked and re-applied for it a number of years later. When I applied for it the second time, there are questions about "have you ever had a permit refused or revoked in this or any other state?" and "have you ever been arrested?". I truthfully answered both questions, because even though I can legally state that I've never been arrested isn't much good when the explanation to why my permit was revoked was that I was arrested...

 

[firestorm]

IMO, the only way a CWOF may not show at all on a record is if the CWOF is issued by a clerk magistrate hearing and not via a judge. Mass does this but who knows about other states. Showing before a clerk doesn't constitute 'going to court' because you are never actually in court. Even if dismissed, the coke charges for your friend did result in a court appearance and it's doubtful the record would be fully expunged. Probably would not show on a CORI check, but will show when a licensing officer checks a more in-depth database. Sucks because there's no clear legal reason your friend was denied- just that fuzzy Mass suitability 'may issue' C-F we face.

It's a federal issue. The MA suitability nonsense has nothing to do with a federal NICS check. Plus this is in RI so MA isn't even in the question. He has to get the court records and talk to the FBI about why he was denied, it could be a mistake, name issue, or even some other thing he has never thought of.

 

[42!]

https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/n...criminal-background-check-system-nics-appeals

 

[Whutmeworry]

I'd just tell mass to **** off at that point and go live somewhere else, unless a gun lawyer was able to convince the PD otherwise.

Personally I believe telling Mass to **** off and moving to another state is pretty much the correct answer to every question ever asked in the history of mankind - and maybe even prior to that...

 

[KBCraig]

Everyone is jumping the gun about calling a lawyer in Florida, or the court, or whatever, until they follow 42!'s advice and launch a Voluntary Appeal File to find out why he was denied.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

This was the issue i had, it wouldnt result in a denial though, it would go to further review and you would get to pick up the firearm in 3 days.
It would never be resolved in the further review because They dont know the disposition.
You have to call the arresting agency and get a copy of the paperwork, if for some reason they dont have it.you should probably seek a lawyer. Unless the arrest was a long time ago they'll print you a copy of the digital record.


Edit

Quote from OP
So, fast forward 8 years, he is having issues with pest animals so he went to a big box store and attempted to purchase a Ruger 10/22. They ran his name, and denied him the purchase.



Ya. we all over thought this, hes just got to go to a real gunstore and i bet he can buy a gun....its store policy handging him up.but he should adress the underlying problem

How is it store policy hanging him up? a real gun store? he fills out the same 4473 as at a big box store....

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

A couple of months later I got a letter from the courts saying the charges were "Dismissed with Prejudice."

I can buy and own a firearm back in New Mexico. I am not a "Prohibited Person" as far as the ATF goes.

But when I moved up here to MA 12 years ago, I couldn't even get an FID card!

A lot's changed in the last 12 years. You might want to revisit the subject.

 

[firestorm]

How is it store policy hanging him up? a real gun store? he fills out the same 4473 as at a big box store....

He is probably equating the delay where the store can release after 3 days (Big box stores usually will refuse to release until a proceed) where this is a deny and has nothing to do with any store policy.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Correct, but source records are from MA. IOW, NICS delays me based on what I assume are MA records that were not accurately "closed" or whatever it's called at the conclusion of some minor dumb shit I did back in the 90's.

Edit: I'm guessing/assuming this is what causes me a 100% delay rate.

Source records are federal, so anythign that happened to you in the US shows up......

 

[42!]

A lot's changed in the last 12 years. You might want to revisit the subject.

It would get him a suitability denial in my town, but I get the feeling he's further west. Talk to your chief, a conversation cost nothing.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[MGnoob]

He is probably equating the delay where the store can release after 3 days (Big box stores usually will refuse to release until a proceed) where this is a deny and has nothing to do with any store policy.

So, fast forward 8 years, he is having issues with pest animals so he went to a big box store and attempted to purchase a Ruger 10/22. They ran his name, and denied him the purchase.

What i am saying is the OP story, which is already a second hand story may not be accurate..big box store that dont release it to you after 3 day often just say "ya, your denied" when infact you aren't.
Now if they ran the check and it came back instant denial, that would indicate thatther info wasnt entered correctly, or the purchaser has other legal issues

 

[AntiHippie]

Source records are federal, so anythign that happened to you in the US shows up......

Maybe I phrased that poorly. Some states, MA is notoriously bad about it, suck at accurately recording current and/or accurate results from proceedings in their state's criminal justice system. When things happen in a MA court, someone in that court in MA feeds the beast with data on what it was that happened. When there is inaccurate or incomplete data, the NICS or state POC has to run it to ground. Some states they can do this electronically. Some states require paper requests - likely, in my skeptical view, to make it more difficult to purchase firearms.

 

[allen-1]

Personally I believe telling Mass to **** off and moving to another state is pretty much the correct answer to every question ever asked in the history of mankind - and maybe even prior to that...

Q: Do you want fries with that?
A: Hey MA - FO; I'm leaving.

That works.

 

[dwarven1]

He was denied, not delayed.

I believe he did something very similar to what your friend did, where because it was a first offense he was able to do some sort of drug program to avoid a conviction.

Answered NOs on the 4473 (which is accurate), and did not plead guilty at the time.

He has not has his records expunged, he didn't think he needed to because he was never actually convicted.

He spoke with his lawyer and the guy wants $1500 to expunge the record of the charge. Considering hes never had an issue with employment or voting, he would be spending the money only to restore the gun rights he didn't know he was missing.

Thats going to be an expensive .22.

Sounds like there may be a screwup on what got entered from the court. Has he appealed the denial? He'll need the NTN from the FFL to do that, but he should get the reason behind the denial from the FBI.

I have a very, VERY close "friend" from New Jersey who got popped for a couple of roaches back in the late 80's. Got a lawyer, went to court, got a "Conditional Discharge" WITHOUT a guilty plea. Lawyer said "It gets expunged in a year". Moved to Arizona, bought a gun no problem. Moved to MA, went to the PD, filled out the app for an LTC, next day got a call from the Licensing Officer: "So, tell me about this pot arrest by the State Police in blank-town..."

Expunged my ass...

Your "friend" needed a better lawyer. It's not automatic; it's more like "you CAN get it expunged", but that's a separate process and a separate court appearance where the judge will mock you for saying something like "I'd like to be able to apply for a job without having to say I've ever been arrested." (******* judge said "what, you're just going to say that in your interview?". Idiot had obviously forgotten all the paperwork involved in getting a job...

And yes, friend happily says "Nope, never been arrested".

I wouldn't want to trust that statement from the judge when applying For a MA LTC. There's always a record somewhere, and the PD always seem to find it. And once they do, they can use that against a person and deny the LTC on grounds of suitability.

With an expunged record, there's no record for them to find except at the FBI; that's supposedly only accessible IF you get arrested again.

Plain and simple, his lawyer outright lied. Nothing gets automatically expunged. There is a process that needs to be undertaken for that to happen. If he didn't do that, then it wasn't expunged.

Yup.

 

[Len-2A Training]

With an expunged record, there's no record for them to find except at the FBI; that's supposedly only accessible IF you get arrested again.

If you think that most (if not all) local PDs will actually delete arrest records, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap.

I know that my PD would never delete any arrest records ever.

 

[dwarven1]

If you think that most (if not all) local PDs will actually delete arrest records, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap.

I know that my PD would never delete any arrest records ever.

Since MA couldn't find the record in question, I'm pretty sure that the lying swine at the PD in question actually did delete them. (Ask me in person sometime why I called them lying swine and I'll tell you.)

 

[dcmdon]

I wouldn't want to trust that statement from the judge when applying For a MA LTC. There's always a record somewhere, and the PD always seem to find it. And once they do, they can use that against a person and deny the LTC on grounds of suitability.

Would that be legal? Probably not, but good luck finding a MA court that would rule in your favor because of the gunz iz bad doctrine

Wow. I must not be paying attention. The last time I looked this thread had NOTHING to do with MA.

- - - Updated - - -

there's always a paper trail somewhere, i don"t care what lawyers and judges tell ya. in close to 50 years of holding a ltc in massachusetts, i've seen a lot of people get screwed over stuff they forgot about, stuff that was suppose to be sealed, expunged, thrown out, etc., and it came back to bite them in the ass.

For what its worth, I told MA when I applied for my LTC and no information was ever found.

There have been some good sized civil awards because of this in CT, so they tend to play by the rules.

 

[otasan]

So back in '08 or '09, one of my lifelong friends (basically my little brother) was down in Miami partying one night in college, and he got caught with a personal use quantity of coke.

He was charged with 3rd degree felony possession of cocaine (possession of any quantity of cocaine is a felony charge in FL).

He was never actually convicted of the charge. He ended up spending a fortune on lawyers and jumped through a ton of hoops, was on probation for at least a year, court ordered drug tests & counselling, etc etc etc.

Long story short, however they set it up, upon successful completion of all of this (which he did) he was home free without a conviction.

He said it was dismissed, but i'm wondering if it was continued without a finding. I don't know how that would work, not a lawyer.

So, fast forward 8 years, he is having issues with pest animals so he went to a big box store and attempted to purchase a Ruger 10/22. They ran his name, and denied him the purchase.

I used the software my company uses for hiring (just basic stuff) and ran his name. It shows that he was charged, but it does not show any info about the outcome of the case.

His lawyer repeatedly assured him that after he did the drug programs, his record would be clear...which in terms of a conviction, it appears to be, but the charge was never expunged so it still shows up.

Can you really lose your gun rights for an ancient felony charge without a conviction? This just doesn't seem right to me.

I may not seem right, but it is the law. This is something that will never happen to me, for I have never touched illicit drugs, even when I was in the USN 1974-80. I will always have the right to buy firearms.

 

[firestorm]

I may not seem right, but it is the law. This is something that will never happen to me, for I have never touched illicit drugs, even when I was in the USN 1974-80. I will always have the right to buy firearms.

So because you never touched drugs, you are certain about a florida law, the results of his case, the way those two intersect, and that it is the reason that he was denied? There are a number of questions here, and unless he talks to the FBI he will never know if it's mistaken identity, this old case, some kind of issue with the files they have at the FBI.

On top of all of that, how is not being convicted (Taking story at face value) of an offense any sort of reasoning for taking one's civil rights? That is not the law, its BS and no amount of time in the navy or refusal to use drugs makes up for not bothering to think a situation through and instead just jumping on somebody for a thing they may have done years ago.

 

[gunofthrones]

IF a HR can find out about that, everybody in the gun business would have that info. did his lawyer lie to him?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I may not seem right, but it is the law. This is something that will never happen to me, for I have never touched illicit drugs, even when I was in the USN 1974-80. I will always have the right to buy firearms.

Don't be so certain. The way things are going with adding new laws and much stricter possible penalties I half expect them to make jay-walking a felony one day . . . in which case I'll become a PP.

 

[KBCraig]

I may not seem right, but it is the law. This is something that will never happen to me, for I have never touched illicit drugs, even when I was in the USN 1974-80. I will always have the right to buy firearms.

The problem with being holier-than-thee, is that someone is always holier than thou.

 

[Hoon]

Update:

I sent all of his info to my go-to FFL, took 3 days to get a reply from NICS but it came back with a "Proceed" so he's good to go.

I'm guessing this was either some bullshit box-store policy, an incompetent employee, or some combination thereof.

 

[dcmdon]

If you think that most (if not all) local PDs will actually delete arrest records, I have a bridge to sell you real cheap.

I know that my PD would never delete any arrest records ever.

Most PDs keep a "contact" database. So even if you are not arrested, you end up in the system if they talk to you for any reason, like if you are a witness or victim of a crime. These are little "silos" of information kept by each PD.

And I realize that the OP is in RI, but just to again give a CT perspective, a number of towns have been sued and lost in civil court by people who remained in these databases after charges were dismissed, whether through normal means or through AR / Nolle process. So many towns DO scrub them of arrests if it leads to a dismissal.

- - - Updated - - -

I may not seem right, but it is the law. This is something that will never happen to me, for I have never touched illicit drugs, even when I was in the USN 1974-80. I will always have the right to buy firearms.

Unless you piss off a dirty cop over something else and he plants drugs on you.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...rugs-in-body-cam-footage-public-defender-says

[video=youtube_share;5XMdJWhDfMs]http://youtu.be/5XMdJWhDfMs[/video]

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Update:

I sent all of his info to my go-to FFL, took 3 days to get a reply from NICS but it came back with a "Proceed" so he's good to go.

I'm guessing this was either some bullshit box-store policy, an incompetent employee, or some combination thereof.

So, did he go in and purchase the rifle from your "go-to" FFL, or did the FFL file a 4473 without him being there and singing it?