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bought a "preban" AR15 turned out to be post ban

TonyDedo

TonyDedo

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Hi guys,

I'm looking for a little advice, I'm hoping you guys (and gals) can help me out:

I bought a AR15 from Collector's in Stoneham. It's a Colt Match HBAR. The gun was advertised on the website as "preban." The tag on it in the store clearly said "preban" and when I asked the guy behind the counter he confirmed it was preban and that I could add "evil" accessories, like a collapsible stock.

Well, I bought the gun, and a couple days later I was shopping on the 'net for a stock, and I figured I'd check the serial number, just in case. Turns out the gun is definitely post ban.

Here's my dilemma. On one hand, I definitely feel like I got screwed. I was clearly shopping for a preban rifle. It seems very unlikely that a shop owner of a reputable shop like that could make such a major mistake. Furthermore, had I not done the research myself, I could have landed in a sticky situation with an illegal rifle.

On the other hand, I really like the rifle. Granted I had my heart set on a collapsible stock, and I wanted a preban for other reasons (demand, resale value, pride), I suppose I can live without. I paid $950, which seems a little high for a 12-year-old postban rifle, but doesn't seem to have a huge preban premium. And if I had done the research on my own before the transaction (I originally went to the shop ‘just to look’) I would have realized the price and serial number said “postban” even if the tag didn’t.

Any thoughts as to what I should do? I don’t really want to return the rifle (shooting it for a week has me thoroughly addicted), but it feels wrong just walking away from the transaction after getting screwed like that. Any other ideas? Thanks!

-Chris

p.s. I know I’m acting like a pussy – forgive me
 
Hi livinlawatertown. One thing you may have is a preban upper with a post ban lower. This is not uncommon. You need to check the serial number on the upper to see if it's different from the lower.
 
That's possible, but would that make a difference? I thought preban vs postban was determined by the lower.

I was told the gun was all original, but who knows at this point in time.
 
If you are in mass and the rifle has any preban features it is not a good idea to keep it. Bring it back to the shop. (by preban features I mean flash hider and bayonet lug ) I would contact Colt directly and get in writing if the weapon is pre or post.

As for the SN Most ar types have no SN on the uppers. so that is of no help.

The lower is what determines if it is preban (and the issue of being a complete rifle at the time of the ban is another... )
 
There is/was a comprehensive S/N list on AR15.com. Not sure but we may have it here or a link as a sticky on NES, take a look.

With the definitive info in hand, I'd pay a trip to Collector's, talk with Jack (owner) and explain what you bought vs. what you got. Ask him what he can do "to make it right", as you like the gun and would like to keep it.

He is a reputable businessman and I believe that a mistake was made and he'll do something to make good on it for you.

Give it a try!
 
Colt
(800) 962-COLT
Various Model Designations
of AR15 type rifles CC001616 and below are pre-ban
CH019500 and below are pre-ban
GC018500 and below are pre-ban
GC205XX (specific gun reported as pre-ban by Colt)
GS010932 made 1990 (pre-ban, no range)
LH011326 and below are pre-ban
MH086020 and below are pre-ban
NL004800 and below are pre-ban
SL027246 and below are pre-ban
SP360200 and below are pre-ban
ST038100 and below are pre-ban
TA10100 and below are pre-ban
BD000134 and below are pre-ban
 
Well, the person who sold you the gun is wrong on at least on thing...
just because a particular rifle (lower), is pre-ban, doesn't mean you can add any 'evil features' you want (at least not in this state).

The rifle had to be in a pre-ban configuration prior to Sept 13, 1994.

Of course proving that it had never been in a pre-ban configuration prior to that date is an entirely different matter. Then again... Colt never sold stripped receivers and if it's the original upper shipped with the receiver, proving it can be simple.
 
The lower is what matters, not the upper.

I like those guys, but you got the shaft on this one. Probably not on purpose. Either way, bring it back. There are tons of other AR15s out there, and the "pre-ban premium" frankly is not that large anymore now that they are just "old rifles" to most of the country now.
 
Return it. I was always told all Colt "Match/Match Target" AR-15 lowers are postban and here is why: MT00001 and Above - Post-Ban
 
Last edited:
AR-15 COLT JUNK

Take it Back for $950.00 you can get a match grade Rock River with a 1in8
twist theres a ton of those out at camp Perry shooting 1000.yds w/80grblts
Colts are hit and miss you can get a tackdriver or JUNK i shoot a Bushy with
a 1in8 twist and love it ten times more than the TWO COLTS that i had
so forget the pre/post stuff for the money your spending buy somthing
that will REACH out and touch someone!!

Just My Two Penny.s Worth!! Take Care Sheriff Dudley s.a.s.s.17925
:pS

i know we will hear from the few Colt Fans
 
Login Name said:
Well, the person who sold you the gun is wrong on at least on thing...
just because a particular rifle (lower), is pre-ban, doesn't mean you can add any 'evil features' you want (at least not in this state).

The rifle had to be in a pre-ban configuration prior to Sept 13, 1994.

Of course proving that it had never been in a pre-ban configuration prior to that date is an entirely different matter. Then again... Colt never sold stripped receivers and if it's the original upper shipped with the receiver, proving it can be simple.
Click to expand...

Absolutely everybody who was producing lower receivers, no matter whether they were sold stripped or as completed rifles knew the details of the federal ban in plenty of time, and concentrated on producing lowers, slapping on an upper with a flash hider and bayonet lug, then doing the same with the next lower. They may have been sold stripped or in any configuration, but they brought an instant premium for being pre-ban AWs. I doubt that there's a single lower out there made before the ban that wasn't set up to qualify in time. Simple profit maximization and the market in operation. [grin]

Ken
 
Ken, I do recall reading (at one time back in the 1998-99 timeframe) that indeed some lowers were made that were NOT qualified by BATFE as "pre-ban configuration". I think the info was on the old AR15 eList (way back before the forum).

IIRC, the mfrs were required to supply BATFE with a list of S/Ns (or range) that qualified as "pre-ban configuration". Again, IIRC that is the source of the pre-ban S/N lists on the AR15 forum.
 
KMaurer said:
Absolutely everybody who was producing lower receivers, no matter whether they were sold stripped or as completed rifles knew the details of the federal ban in plenty of time, and concentrated on producing lowers, slapping on an upper with a flash hider and bayonet lug, then doing the same with the next lower. They may have been sold stripped or in any configuration, but they brought an instant premium for being pre-ban AWs. I doubt that there's a single lower out there made before the ban that wasn't set up to qualify in time. Simple profit maximization and the market in operation. [grin]

Ken
Click to expand...

That's why I deliberately posted "The rifle had to be in a pre-ban configuration prior to Sept 13, 1994", instead of posting "must have left the factory in pre-ban configuration"... [wink]


http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=234446&postcount=5

LenS said:
Ken, I do recall reading (at one time back in the 1998-99 timeframe) that indeed some lowers were made that were NOT qualified by BATFE as "pre-ban configuration". I think the info was on the old AR15 eList (way back before the forum).

IIRC, the mfrs were required to supply BATFE with a list of S/Ns (or range) that qualified as "pre-ban configuration". Again, IIRC that is the source of the pre-ban S/N lists on the AR15 forum.
Click to expand...

I've often wondered what's meant by the "Questionable Status" of some Bushmaster AR-15s?...

Pre-Ban Status L051000 or lower with exceptions.

Post-Ban Status L063000 or higher All Serial Numbers beginning with BFI are Post Ban.

Questionable Status L051001 - L062999

http://www.bushmaster.com/faqnew/content_by_cat.asp?contentid=138&catid=103
 
I do believe that Colt was the first to try and appease the gods by voluntarily removing some features, mostly the bayonet lugs. That's why you would see a Colt SP-1 or HBAR with a flash hider but no bayonet lug. It's still a post-ban gun in that configuration...

Pre-ban guns in MA are like Harleys - it's only worth what someone will pay you for it. I WON'T GIVE ANYONE $1300 + FOR A PRE-BAN GUN!!!! I wouldn't buy a pre-ban gun for " investment " purposes because you can have it in MA. Collector purpose would still have alot of hoops to jump thru before I would spent the money.

Remember, it's my .02 cents and YMMV.

Joe R
 
I would agree that he should talk with the owner who sold it to him, if he is an honest and ethical ffl I'm sure he would admit the mistake and compensate for it. On another note, could he get in trouble for advertising a post-ban firearm as pre-ban, and moreso selling it as one? Is there any responsibility on the buyer to make sure that it is pre-ban if the FFL who is supposed to know tells him it is? Just curious!
 
No laws other than "misrepresentation" apply TTBOMK (IANAL) on selling the item. The owner is responsible for following the law correctly, regardless of who told him what.
 
LenS said:
No laws other than "misrepresentation" apply TTBOMK (IANAL) on selling the item. The owner is responsible for following the law correctly, regardless of who told him what.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. So do the Mass. General Laws:

G.L.c. 140, § 131M. Assault weapon or large capacity feeding device not lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994; sale, transfer or possession; punishment.

No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. Whoever not being licensed under the provisions of section 122 [sales license] violates the provisions of this section shall be punished, for a first offense, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and for a second offense, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than five years nor more than 15 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

If the gun was a post-ban converted to a pre-ban configuration, the seller of such gun is clearly liable under the above statute.
 
Counselor:

Would the dealer be liable if he sells the gun in POST-BAN Config (as reported by OP) and then the OP rebuilds it in PRE-BAN Config . . . believing it to be legal? This is assuming (as we are told) that the gun is indeed NOT a Pre-Ban gun!

I would think that ONLY the person who converts it would be on the legal hook . . . and that is what I was basing my statement on.

Am I really wrong given the above?
 
LenS said:
Counselor:

Would the dealer be liable if he sells the gun in POST-BAN Config (as reported by OP) and then the OP rebuilds it in PRE-BAN Config . . . believing it to be legal? This is assuming (as we are told) that the gun is indeed NOT a Pre-Ban gun!

I would think that ONLY the person who converts it would be on the legal hook . . . and that is what I was basing my statement on.

Am I really wrong given the above?
Click to expand...


Well, it depends upon what the definition of "is" is... [wink]

Here's what we were initially told:

The gun was advertised on the website as "preban." The tag on it in the store clearly said "preban" and when I asked the guy behind the counter he confirmed it was preban and that I could add "evil" accessories, like a collapsible stock.
Click to expand...

If it was advertised and sold as "preban," it should have had the normal preban features; i.e., flash hider and bayonet lug. If it did not have at least the FH, there is NO reason to believe it was as advertised: "PREBAN." My analysis is premised on that fundamental fact.

Now, let us assume that this allegedly "preban" gun was not and was thus devoid of ANY of the standard PB features, yet was sold as such. IF the gun was converted AFTER the sale by the buyer, then you are correct: The consequences of possession a "post-ban" gun with all those deadly, cosmetic features would fall squarely on said buyer.

Don't forget to get those powder stains out of the blue dress. [wink]
 
Last edited:
Joe R. said:
I do believe that Colt was the first to try and appease the gods by voluntarily removing some features, mostly the bayonet lugs. That's why you would see a Colt SP-1 or HBAR with a flash hider but no bayonet lug. It's still a post-ban gun in that configuration...
Click to expand...

Joe,
I might be mistaken but unless it was a perminently mounted flash hider, a flash hider alone on a preban rifle would still make it a Preban configuration.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
Gary
 

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