Boston PD Arrest Man in Possesion of P80 Glock

[Horrible]

So, other than rolling through a stop sign, this is something that would be completely legal in ~ 45 states?

Nice job getting this dangerous person off of our streets, where he will be out on bail ready to be arrested again for his 4th or 5th offenses.

 

[Al-Jim19]

What about them?

Their frames are not the serialized part.

 

[Toast]

Their frames are not the serialized part.

I was editing my post simultaneous with your posting this.

The P320 does serialize the frames. It's on the frame itself (a separate piece held within the grip), and can be seen through the side of the grip:





Ruger plays word games by having a "barrel / receiver" assembly that's serialized.

 

[cams]

It always entertains me seeing the variety of ammo that is displayed in these pics. Looks like only 2 flavors this time, the good ones usually have 6 - 10 very different rounds.

Some “people” sell bags of ammo in there like people sell bags of pot. Nickels = 5 rds, Dimes = 10 rds etc

There are also “neighborhood” guns available to rent. Usually hidden somewhere and the rentee pays to use it, then replaces it where he picked it up and so on.

 

[Broc]

Unlawful Possession of a Firearm (3rd Subsequent Offense).

Ma courts Fail

Are you sure that's a MA court fail?

 

[92G]

the P320 uses a serialized FCU (fire control unit). there isn't really a "frame" in the sense of a typical "lower" half.

how exactly is Ruger "playing word games" by having their upper as the serialized part for the mark series? it's just how they chose to do it from the beginning. many firearms, particuarly rifles, use a serialized upper as the "firearm".

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Glock compatible slides and barrels are manufactured by a lot of people, they're serial numbered not for ATF compliance but for quality control and tracking of expensive parts.

Serializing the barrel and slide is common with guns of Eurpean heritage, and is not for "quality control and tracking of expensive parts", but to comply with legal requirements in the various target markets. In some countries, the regulated part is the barrel, not the frame. I don't know if any countries require the slide to be serial numbered.'

If this is an unserialed ghost gun frame, the Boston PD missed a PR opportunity.

 

[allen-1]

Wondering something...is there a law or rule that says the frame of a firearm must be serialized? I know the ruger mk pistols actually have the serial number on the slide and the P320 has it on the fcu. If you attached a P80 frame to a factory Glock slide with serial number, does it then have a legit serial number?

Massachusetts is the only state that I'm aware of that doesn't treat a receiver/frame/lower as the firearm. Every other state and the feds consider the frame to be the firearm. That's why it's serialized. A useful analogy might be the VIN on automobiles. It's typically on a plate on the dash, on the frame and an abbreviated version on the block. The glass is often engraved as a theft deterrent, but the engine isn't the vehicle, nor is the glass.

 

[Toast]

the P320 uses a serialized FCU (fire control unit). there isn't really a "frame" in the sense of a typical "lower" half.

If you look at the excerpt from the P320 manual shown in #33, Sig clearly calls it a "frame". If you disagree, take it up with them.

how exactly is Ruger "playing word games" by having their upper as the serialized part for the mark series? it's just how they chose to do it from the beginning. many firearms, particuarly rifles, use a serialized upper as the "firearm".

Considering the age of original design, it may be that there wasn't a hard and fast rule on where it needed to be placed in the '40s. Clearly, their decision to declare part of the upper a "receiver" is an attempt to get into legal compliance without requiring a redesign or admitting they picked a bad spot 70 years ago. Appears they got ATF to go along. That being said, have you ever heard anyone anywhere refer to that part as a "receiver"?

 

[92G]

If you look at the excerpt from the P320 manual shown in #33, Sig clearly calls it a "frame". If you disagree, take it up with them.

the lower part to which you refer is the grip module. if i were start a list of greivances with Sig this would be like #200.

Considering the age of original design, it may be that there wasn't a hard and fast rule on where it needed to be placed in the '40s. Clearly, their decision to declare part of the upper a "receiver" is an attempt to get into legal compliance without requiring a redesign or admitting they picked a bad spot 70 years ago. Appears they got ATF to go along. That being said, have you ever heard anyone anywhere refer to that part as a "receiver"?

Yes and yes. SCAR, ACR, Sig 556 series and many other rifles use the upper receiver as the serialized part and thus the "firearm" by legal definition. i'm not sure how this is any manufacturer fooling or pulling a fast one. it just is what it is. take a look at the kriss vector that'll really make your head spin. the lower is serialized but the trigger mechanism is in the upper! and the lower isn't really a lower it's more like just the front part.

 

[atmay]

The requirement is that the “frame”, or “receiver” be serialized.

Which exact part each manufacturer determines to be the frame and/or receiver is up to them, although if I had to guess, manufacturing AR-15 pattern rifles (or Glock-pattern handguns) with serialized uppers (and therefor leaving the lowers as non-firearms) might land you in some hot water with the ATF.


I should also add: on a lot of firearms, a singular frame/receiver performs all the functions of the upper and lower half of an AR, or pistol. It’s pretty clear what should be serialized there. When there are multiple parts that meet the basic definition of “frame or receiver”, it leaves a lot of leeway for the manufacturer.

 

[AHM]

Wondering something...is there a law or rule that says the frame of a firearm must be serialized?

27 CFR 479.102 - How must firearms be identified?

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. ...​

I know the ruger mk pistols actually have the serial number on the slide receiver ...

FTFY

What about them? The P320 has a serial number on the frame, and the Ruger elides the issue by calling the barrel a "barrel / receiver assembly".

Never attempt to disassemble the barrel/receiver assembly.

 

[Paul455]

Shoild have pulled an ERPO on the perp BEFORE he was caught.

Yup, that would have worked.

 

[AHM]

... I'm betting almost none of it will stick, since he's a frequent flyer.

Frequent flyer, you ain't kidding:

Justia:COMMONWEALTH vs. HAL MCINTOSH.

78 Mass. App. Ct. 37
March 24, 2010 - October 8, 2010
...
At the trial of indictments charging the defendant with possession of a firearm, possession of ammunition, and possession of a loaded firearm, the evidence, viewed in the light most favorable to the Commonwealth, supported the inference that the defendant, at the time of his initial confrontation with police, had in his possession the firearm in question, and that, afraid that the firearm would be discovered, he ran into a bedroom and hid the firearm under a mattress; ...

The rest of the ruling is one knee-slapper after another.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Considering the age of original design, it may be that there wasn't a hard and fast rule on where it needed to be placed in the '40s.

It is likely that Ruger asked the ATF for a ruling approving this location.

There is also a procedure for variances. There are cases where someone wishes to obliterate part of the sn to mount a scope on a pistol, and they have been able to get a variance from the BATFE to do so and re-engrave the serial number elsewhere on the frame.

 

[allen-1]

Serializing the barrel and slide is common with guns of Eurpean heritage, and is not for "quality control and tracking of expensive parts", but to comply with legal requirements in the various target markets. In some countries, the regulated part is the barrel, not the frame. I don't know if any countries require the slide to be serial numbered.'

If this is an unserialed ghost gun frame, the Boston PD missed a PR opportunity.

I was unaware of the European requirements until reading your response and doing a quick google - thank you.

ATF in USA has no such requirements, so I was blissfully unaware.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Perhaps this, wrongly applied of course: General Law - Part IV, Title I, Chapter 269, Section 12D

No kidding, so they are using a law that specifies shotgun/rifle to charge a person carrying a handgun! I wish I could say that it surprises me, but it doesn't. Spaghetti against the wall charge.

Either that or he only had 11 rounds total in a 15 or 17 round mag, I can't tell from the picture how much that mag should hold, maybe someone better with glock mags will chime in.

From that view of the mag it is impossible to say if it is a 10 rd mag or greater. The criminal case I testified at they charged a guy with large capacity gun (Norinco SKS, 10 rd internal mag) and large capacity clips (SKS 10 rd clips) claiming both could hold 11 rds. Throwing spaghetti at the wall is a sport many DAs practice.

 

[Toast]

the lower part to which you refer is the grip module. if i were start a list of greivances with Sig this would be like #200.

I was referring to the removable section containing the trigger, which Sig clearly identifies as the "frame", as it tells you to remove the frame from the grip module. The grip module has a window in it, through which you can see the serial number on the frame.

SCAR, ACR, Sig 556 series and many other rifles use the upper receiver as the serialized part and thus the "firearm" by legal definition. i'm not sure how this is any manufacturer fooling or pulling a fast one. it just is what it is. take a look at the kriss vector that'll really make your head spin. the lower is serialized but the trigger mechanism is in the upper! and the lower isn't really a lower it's more like just the front part.

Sure, but since we were talking about a handgun, I didn't think it was necessary to ask if you had ever seen "a handgun with that section labelled as a receiver". I figured it would be intuitively obvious to anyone addressing the question instead of trying to score debate points.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The Serbu 50A 50BMG uses an AR15 like lower, though there is a dual coil leaf spring to give the necessary whack to the primer. Serbu has designated the upper (he refers to the serialized part as the trunion) as the serialized part. Mine is marked "Caliber 50BMG, Serial No 50BMG".

 

[nordic alien]

STFU.

WTF ?

 

[Al-Jim19]

I was editing my post simultaneous with your posting this.

The P320 does serialize the frames. It's on the frame itself (a separate piece held within the grip), and can be seen through the side of the grip:
View attachment 239091
View attachment 239093



Ruger plays word games by having a "barrel / receiver" assembly that's serialized.
View attachment 239094

27 CFR 479.102 - How must firearms be identified?

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. ...​

FTFY

Never attempt to disassemble the barrel/receiver assembly.

So if I were to make my own P80 with a Glock brand serialized slide, can I then say that the slide is the receiver? Its not a Glock so therefore I as the manufacturer can say that the top half is the barrel receiver like ruger...

 

[GM-GUY]

Could be. I stopped keeping track.

And I stopped caring - F them

 

[AHM]

So if I were to make my own P80 with a Glock brand serialized slide, can I then say that the slide is the receiver?

Is a P80 Glock brand serialized slide "that part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel"?

(27 CFR 478.11 - Meaning of terms: Firearm frame or receiver)

 

[Boris]

So if I were to make my own P80 with a Glock brand serialized slide, can I then say that the slide is the receiver? Its not a Glock so therefore I as the manufacturer can say that the top half is the barrel receiver like ruger...

lol @ "it's not a glock" ... have you seen the journalist's guide to firearms? Everything is a glock.

all plastic frames must have enough steel in it to be detectable by metal scanners, it's that "detectable weapon" act. I don't remember where, but P80 should have enough somewhere. Like any other gun defense, it's only limited by the amount of money you are willing to spend on attorneys.

The whole frame/serials thing at thing point is a complete sham. It has no logic, rhyme or reason, just whatever ATF let's you do. Without giving out specific information, there are ways to assembly a full auto rifle from "not registered" parts, i.e. you can never even register it if you wanted to. Plus there are examples of the same model/make rifles which originally registered upper, then lower, so technically ...

I don't know how long ATF will keep up this charade trying to come up with outlandish crap like shoestring MGs then "clarifying" that in a way that no sane person could grasp. I have no idea how they can issue all those rulings with a straight face while "not infringing"

 

[richc]

The requirement is that the “frame”, or “receiver” be serialized.

Which exact part each manufacturer determines to be the frame and/or receiver is up to them, although if I had to guess, manufacturing AR-15 pattern rifles (or Glock-pattern handguns) with serialized uppers (and therefor leaving the lowers as non-firearms) might land you in some hot water with the ATF.


I should also add: on a lot of firearms, a singular frame/receiver performs all the functions of the upper and lower half of an AR, or pistol. It’s pretty clear what should be serialized there. When there are multiple parts that meet the basic definition of “frame or receiver”, it leaves a lot of leeway for the manufacturer.

Do I recall correctly that an Uzi upper is the serialized part? Another anomaly...

 

[Boris]

Do I recall correctly that an Uzi upper is the serialized part? Another anomaly...

you do, pistol grip with with FCG are not regulated, but it's consistent with similar guns where "trigger pack" is not regulated, like CETME.

 

[atmay]

Is a P80 Glock brand serialized slide "that part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel"?

(27 CFR 478.11 - Meaning of terms: Firearm frame or receiver)

I would say that either half of a Glock-pattern pistol meets that definition, although (ironically) the upper seems to check more boxes than the lower does.

 

[garandman]

My operational theory is always that these things happen within 0.3 mi of Bowdoin and Geneva.

Rosseter runs parallel to Bowdoin, intersects Bowdoin almost at the intersection with Geneva....

 

[Waher]

My operational theory is always that these things happen within 0.3 mi of Bowdoin and Geneva.

Rosseter runs parallel to Bowdoin, intersects Bowdoin almost at the intersection with Geneva....

Blue Hill Ave ain't no picnic either.

 

[Matt_SERE]

Wondering if they saw the glock slide and serial on it the overlooked the frame?
It's easy for them not to know that glocks have 2 sn's, because they are illegal.
Is that a P80 or one of those ones on armslist with the custom stippling you pay extra for

snax, can you clarify what you mean specifically here?

because they are illegal.