Being Charged with Carrying on Expired LTC

[inkdesigner]

This will be interesting for folks to follow.

Driver Hurt, Charged After Car Crashes Into Webster Bank In Brockton

The interesting part is it appears he is being criminally charged with possession with an expired LTC. Granted, the article is a little lite on the details of the firearms charges, but I always believed that carrying on an expired LTC was just a civil offense, not a criminal offense assuming he doesn't fit into the std buckets of having since become a PP or he applied for a renewal and was denied on suitability or his issuing PD didnt input his application into MIRCS prior to his expiration, or it was revoked for any reason other than failure to file a change of address.

 

[drgrant]

It is, someone is probably pulling a bologna on the wall job on this guy because of the DUI.

-Mike

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Morano was summonsed on charges of negligent operation of a motor vehicle, marked lanes violation, carrying a firearm without a license, unlawful possession of ammunition, intoxicated licensee carrying a firearm and destruction of property.

Well, was he 'licensed' or not? Maybe the DA will posit that the grace period doesn't apply to carrying but does apply to carrying intoxicated.

 

[rkade2]

Well if he wasn’t a PP before, odds are pretty solid he’ll be a PP now..

 

[Len-2A Training]

ADAs have an agenda and will throw charges at someone for something like this, hoping that he uses a public defender who knows nothing of the gun laws to refute it. I'll bet it works more often than not.

 

[enbloc]

LTC's should NEVER Expire, just like the old FID's used to.
Name another Amendment that "Expires"...

Oh, and they should be free of charge...
and save you 10 cents a gallon at fill up.

I'm pissed that those who came before me had more Rights than I do...
and those who come after me will have less...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A case actually went to trial where the ADA argued that the LTC expired so many years ago (I think it was around 15 years), that the rendering of carry a civil rather than criminal offense "obviously" did not apply. The court found otherwise, noting there was no expiration date in the law.

Two lessons:

1. The state will not hesitate to prosecute for a non-crime based on what the PD and ADA thinks the law should be. People have also been prosecuted (charges eventually dropped after atty involvement) for guns in a car on school property, legally stored, and not "on their person". People have also been prosecuted for possession of "unregistered" guns, also not a crime.

2. PDs are taught to keep a perpetual record of any denied renewal, as such terminates the protection afforded by an expired LTC. There will generally be a scavenger hunt for such denials, and the validity of the expired LTC will not be accepted until the hunt for a denial or revocation is complete. Even then, the validity may be ignored.

I'm pissed that those who came before me had more Rights than I do...
and those who come after me will have less...

Not totally.

1. You have a MUCH better of getting an unrestricted LTC than you would have had 20 or 30 years ago. We're at about 92% unrestricted.

2. You can now legally leave an unloaded handgun locked in the trunk of your car. This was not the case until (I think) 1998 because of a strange MA court ruling that leaving it in your trunk was "carrying" but not under your direct control.

3. If you are a legal permanent resident, you can get an LTC.

 

[AHM]

Well if he wasn’t a PP before, odds are pretty solid he’ll be a PP now..

You can bank on it.

 

[RHJJ]

LTC's should NEVER Expire, just like the old FID's used to.
Name another Amendment that "Expires"...

Oh, and they should be free of charge...
and save you 10 cents a gallon at fill up.

I'm pissed that those who came before me had more Rights than I do...
and those who come after me will have less...

It’s about the $100 every 6 years

 

[namedpipes]

LTC's should NEVER Expire, just like the old FID's used to.
Name another Amendment that "Expires"...

Oh, and they should be free of charge...
and save you 10 cents a gallon at fill up.

I'm pissed that those who came before me had more Rights than I do...
and those who come after me will have less...

LTC's should never be required in the first place.

IF you are apprehended while using a firearm to further your criminal aspirations, THEN a court can deal with the firearm issue. Otherwise, it's none of the state's business.

 

[whacko]

A case actually went to trial where the ADA argued that the LTC expired so many years ago (I think it was around 15 years), that the rendering of carry a civil rather than criminal offense "obviously" did not apply. The court found otherwise, noting there was no expiration date in the law.

Two lessons:

1. The state will not hesitate to prosecute for a non-crime based on what the PD and ADA thinks the law should be. People have also been prosecuted (charges eventually dropped after atty involvement) for guns in a car on school property, legally stored, and not "on their person". People have also been prosecuted for possession of "unregistered" guns, also not a crime.

2. PDs are taught to keep a perpetual record of any denied renewal, as such terminates the protection afforded by an expired LTC. There will generally be a scavenger hunt for such denials, and the validity of the expired LTC will not be accepted until the hunt for a denial or revocation is complete. Even then, the validity may be ignored.


Not totally.

1. You have a MUCH better of getting an unrestricted LTC than you would have had 20 or 30 years ago. We're at about 92% unrestricted.

2. You can now legally leave an unloaded handgun locked in the trunk of your car. This was not the case until (I think) 1998 because of a strange MA court ruling that leaving it in your trunk was "carrying" but not under your direct control.

3. If you are a legal permanent resident, you can get an LTC.

True. Mass went from very terrible to terrible.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

LTC's should NEVER Expire, just like the old FID's used to.
Name another Amendment that "Expires"...

Oh, and they should be free of charge...
and save you 10 cents a gallon at fill up.

I'm pissed that those who came before me had more Rights than I do...
and those who come after me will have less...

and like others in free states.

 

[kingfisher]

Police found a loaded gun in the bank. Morano’s license to carry is expired.

I wonder if they can even prove that the gun was his.

Quoted so we can hopefully follow the outcome of this case even if the article at the link goes away...

Police say 51-year-old Robert Morano was speeding down Oak Street around 2:30 a.m. when he lost control of his Hyundai. It hit a curb and went airborne. The car landed on the sidewalk, took out a light pole and two parking signs before crashing into Webster Bank and flipping over on its roof.

 

[RHJJ]

Nothing good happens at 2AM in Brockton

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I wonder if they can even prove that the gun was his.

Quoted so we can hopefully follow the outcome of this case even if the article at the link goes away...

Assuming the subject can afford good legal counsel, the carry and ammo charges will either be dropped or changed to the civil violation of carrying on an expired license.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON - If you have an expired/expiring LTC and don't know if the PD will not renew it DO NOT ASK. Attorney Tassel tells me that there is a precedent that even a verbal denial "counts" for the purposes of terminating the protection provided by an LTC.

 

[robjax]

Morano was summonsed on charges of negligent operation of a motor vehicle, marked lanes violation, carrying a firearm without a license, unlawful possession of ammunition, intoxicated licensee carrying a firearm and destruction of property.

how can he be carrying without a license and also be an intoxicated licensee carrying a firearm? Logically you can be one or the other. I don't think you can be both....please explain....

 

[JenkkiMike]

LTC's should NEVER Expire, just like the old FID's used to.
Name another Amendment that "Expires"...

Oh, and they should be free of charge...
and save you 10 cents a gallon at fill up.

I'm pissed that those who came before me had more Rights than I do...
and those who come after me will have less...

There shouldn't even be LTCs.

 

[snowballs]

He was just making a deposit using the drive through.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Morano was summonsed on charges of negligent operation of a motor vehicle, marked lanes violation, carrying a firearm without a license, unlawful possession of ammunition, intoxicated licensee carrying a firearm and destruction of property.

how can he be carrying without a license and also be an intoxicated licensee carrying a firearm? Logically you can be one or the other. I don't think you can be both....please explain....

It's called "throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what will stick"! DAs do it all the time.

That's why you need a very sharp attorney who knows MA gun laws, and they are very scarce plus expensive.

 

[namedpipes]

It's called "throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what will stick"! DAs do it all the time.

That's why you need a very sharp attorney who knows MA gun laws, and they are very scarce plus expensive.

There oughta be a law that makes it a criminal offense for the .gov to do that. Pick the main theme "crime" and make your case or not.

Send some lawyers to jail over this and just possibly rebuild some trust...

 

[RHJJ]

There shouldn't even be LTCs.

I bet most people in Brockton that carry don't have a LTC.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

There oughta be a law that makes it a criminal offense for the .gov to do that. Pick the main theme "crime" and make your case or not.

You think that's bad. There was a homicide case in Boston a few years ago where two separate people were charged, and the prosecution argued a totally different theory in each of two cases with the same victim. In each case, the theory was that the defendant done did the deed. Both were convicted of killing the same person under different theories of what happened.

how can he be carrying without a license and also be an intoxicated licensee carrying a firearm?

It would be complete if an officer Schrodinger filed the charges.

 

[Toast]

It would be complete if an officer Schrodinger filed the charges.

But only if he didn't know if the suspect was in the booking area or not.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

But only if he didn't know if the suspect was in the booking area or not.

I think you mean both in the booking area and not in the booking area at the same time.

 

[swatgig]

It's called "throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what will stick"! DAs do it all the time.

That's why you need a very sharp attorney who knows MA gun laws, and they are very scarce plus expensive.

The police, not the DA files the application for criminal complaint.

I had a client charged with c269 §10(m), FIREARM, POSSESS LARGE CAPACITY. Didn't seem to matter to the DA that he had a valid LTC at the time. They wouldn't dismiss until he "admitted to sufficient facts" on another charge. They knew that dragging it out would only cost my client more money.

Also interesting that he's charged with Carrying under the influence, but not driving under the influence.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

intoxicated licensee carrying a firearm

An interesting legal puzzle:

1. A credible argument can be made than one with an LTC is no longer a licensee, just a former licensee who is protected by an expired license law.

2. Carrying under the influence (the law does not require intoxicated) is a charge that only applies to a licensee.

Therefore, a person with an expired license is subject only to a civil penalty (provided none of the things that strip this protection have occurred), but cannot be convicted of carrying under the influence since he is not a current licensee.

Of course, this requires a court that would enforce the law as written, not as it wishes the law was worded.

 

[drgrant]

The police, not the DA files the application for criminal complaint.

At some point though won't the DA tell the kopsch wether they're off the wall or not? There seemed to be a trend where on a "gun case" where some guy would
have 38 pounds of bullshit thrown at him, 35 pounds end up getting dropped up front when someone realizes its garbage. (or my guess is, possibly the clients attorney embarrasses the state/kopsch/DA into doing so, somehow).

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Also interesting that he's charged with Carrying under the influence, but not driving under the influence.

The MA courts have already established that blowing a BAC < .08 and thus proving innocence of driving under the influence is not a defense against a carrying under the influence charge because guns are more dangerous than cars (yes, the court really said that).

 

[180 GRAIN FMJ]

DANGER WILL ROBINSON - If you have an expired/expiring LTC and don't know if the PD will not renew it DO NOT ASK. Attorney Tassel tells me that there is a precedent that even a verbal denial "counts" for the purposes of terminating the protection provided by an LTC.

What about if you had the old "good forever" paper FID and you never renewed it because you got an LTC instead (back in 2000)?

Under that scenario, say they revoke your LTC, are you still protected because they technically never revoked your "good untill suspended or revoked" FID?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Also interesting that he's charged with Carrying under the influence, but not driving under the influence.

The argument would be the state revoked all of the old FIDs.