BBC On Guns - Featuring Ralph Demicco From Hooksett NH

[10thSFFD]

The silent epidemic of America’s problem with guns

Two thirds of American gun deaths are suicides. How do you solve a problem hardly anyone talks about?

www.bbc.com

In a few states, unlikely coalitions of public health researchers and gun enthusiasts have formed with the shared goal of raising awareness. The first such coalition was born nearly a decade ago when Ralph Demicco, the owner of a large gun shop in the small town of Hooksett, New Hampshire, got a call from a local public health researcher after the local coroner saw that three people had killed themselves in the space of six days shortly after buying a gun from his store. "I was dumbfounded," Demicco told me. "I couldn't believe it."

Demicco watched and re-watched CCTV tapes of the sales. He had believed he was running a socially responsible gun shop, one that even boasted of an unofficial motto, "firearms for the responsible", where staff applied due diligence to every sale and were able to identify vulnerable people or people in a crisis. But when he watched the tapes he saw three normal looking sales. "I saw nothing out of the ordinary," he said, "nothing."

He agreed to join forces with the researcher who'd called him, Dr Elaine Frank, and together they created the Gun Shop Project. With no state backing and barely any money, they produced display posters and cards with safe gun storage advice and contact details for support groups, and posted them to about 70 gun shops in New Hampshire, where more than 85% of gun deaths are suicides.

Between the project and its goal lay years of deep-seated mistrust. Some shop owners said it was just another way to demonise guns. Others said it would be bad for business. But six months after their mailout, Frank and Demicco personally visited every shop on the list, unannounced, and found their booklets and posters displayed in about half.

"We considered that a pretty big success, getting some of the gun store owners to trust the public health people," Demicco said. "I had never seen that before."

 

[Dennis in MA]

Wow. Booklets. Someone should call Trump. Send booklets to the slums and maybe they'll all work hard to start businesses. I recall Winston Wolf's NSFW quip about getting excited far too early to see if something is even effective.

History tells us that reducing access to certain means of suicide can have a dramatic effect on suicide rates. In the early 20th Century, the UK began heating domestic ovens with coal gas, which contained lethal levels of carbon monoxide. Suicide rates spiked, particularly among women, and by the 1950s more than half of all suicides in the UK — about the same proportion as firearm suicides in the US today - involved a coal gas oven. Then in 1958 the government began, incidentally, to replace coal gas with a cleaner natural gas which was virtually free of carbon monoxide, and by the early 1970s gas oven suicides fell to zero and the overall national suicide rate fell by a third. The so-called "coal gas story" became a touchstone for suicide prevention experts worldwide.

AAAaaaactually, you can't do a cause-effect on this one. I've looked into it. Town Gas WAS a problem. And made it easy for housewives to kill themselves while hubby-and-children were out at school/work.

But to say that the overall suicide rate fell in full or part because of town gas is not a leap you can COMPLETELY make. Suicide IS a crime of opportunity. And once that opportunity is gone, it will reduce some suicide. But so did economic successes in GB during the same time. Hard to put a # on it.

In NH that guy sold 3 guns to 3 suiciders. That's not crime-of-passion. You don't wake up one day, go out, take out $500 from your bank, go to a gun store, pass a background check, buy a gun, wait 3 days THEN shoot yourself.

I will concede that if we had no guns in America at all suicide levels would be lower b/c it's harder to kill yourself by other means. But other means WOULD be invented/thought up and then disseminated throughout the internet so that you'd have the same suicide rate, just with a chemical concoction instead of a gun.

Their argument that 85% of gun suicides are successful and 95% of non-gun are not is NOT a reason to ban guns. Because absent THAT effective strategy, those who wanna kill themselves will find the other effective means and use them. It's the old poor-workman-blaming-his-tools routine.

 

[mothybee]

If only somebody would come up with a..mmm...uh.. let's say red flag law, then the unicorns will return and peace and harmony will return throughout the world. Or, they could do a headon into a school bus.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I will concede that if we had no guns in America at all suicide levels would be lower b/c it's harder to kill yourself by other means. But other means WOULD be invented/thought up and then disseminated throughout the internet so that you'd have the same suicide rate, just with a chemical concoction instead of a gun.

I wouldn't even be that charitable. My understanding is that the Canadian handgun registry saw decreased suicide by firearm. They saw near-parity of replacement by hanging almost immediately.

 

[10thSFFD]

If only somebody would come up with a..mmm...uh.. let's say red flag law, then the unicorns will return and peace and harmony will return throughout the world. Or, they could do a headon into a school bus.

How about red flag laws for driving cars?

Deaths of California family in van that plunged off cliff reportedly ruled murder-suicide

A family of eight who plunged to their deaths last year when their SUV went over a California cliff died in a murder-suicide, a coroner’s jury determined Thursday.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Palladin]

Suicide in Japan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

a country with virtually no firearms, and 1/3 the population of the US, has the same number of suicides annually.

I'm sympathetic towards suicide, I think it's absolute wrong thing to do, but a piece like this coming from the BBC, is nothing short of a way around eliminating firearms in the US

 

[Bonesinium]

You don't wake up one day, go out, take out $500 from your bank, go to a gun store, pass a background check, buy a gun, wait 3 days THEN shoot yourself.

I’m not sure what you are saying here. Clearly some people do.

 

[qqac]

I will concede that if we had no guns in America at all suicide levels would be lower b/c it's harder to kill yourself by other means.

I wouldn't concede that, not by a longshot. Much easier to kill yourself like Fotis Doulos did, via car carbon monoxide. Most everone has a car readily available, and you just run it in an enclosed space like a garage, or run a hose from the tailpipe through the car window. Quiet and effective, and minimal expense.

And the cooking stove method is still effective if you just use charcoal briquettes in a hibachi indoors.

 

[Bt74]

Wow. Booklets. Someone should call Trump. Send booklets to the slums and maybe they'll all work hard to start businesses. I recall Winston Wolf's NSFW quip about getting excited far too early to see if something is even effective.




AAAaaaactually, you can't do a cause-effect on this one. I've looked into it. Town Gas WAS a problem. And made it easy for housewives to kill themselves while hubby-and-children were out at school/work.

But to say that the overall suicide rate fell in full or part because of town gas is not a leap you can COMPLETELY make. Suicide IS a crime of opportunity. And once that opportunity is gone, it will reduce some suicide. But so did economic successes in GB during the same time. Hard to put a # on it.

In NH that guy sold 3 guns to 3 suiciders. That's not crime-of-passion. You don't wake up one day, go out, take out $500 from your bank, go to a gun store, pass a background check, buy a gun, wait 3 days THEN shoot yourself.

I will concede that if we had no guns in America at all suicide levels would be lower b/c it's harder to kill yourself by other means. But other means WOULD be invented/thought up and then disseminated throughout the internet so that you'd have the same suicide rate, just with a chemical concoction instead of a gun.

Their argument that 85% of gun suicides are successful and 95% of non-gun are not is NOT a reason to ban guns. Because absent THAT effective strategy, those who wanna kill themselves will find the other effective means and use them. It's the old poor-workman-blaming-his-tools routine.

Guns have little to do with suicide rates. Look at Japan, draconian gun laws, an a suicide rate roughly 50% higher than the USA.

 

[greencobra]

Look at Japan, draconian gun laws, an a suicide rate roughly 50% higher than the USA.

in japan, suicide is an honorable way out. out of what i don't know, but it's been a way of life for centuries for failures, etc.

 

[ridleyman]

Guns have little to do with suicide rates. Look at Japan, draconian gun laws, an a suicide rate roughly 50% higher than the USA.

And many other countries, too, with much more gun control than us

 

[Nick Fury]

How about red flag laws for driving cars?

Deaths of California family in van that plunged off cliff reportedly ruled murder-suicide

A family of eight who plunged to their deaths last year when their SUV went over a California cliff died in a murder-suicide, a coroner’s jury determined Thursday.

www.foxnews.com

And with cars they often take others with them:

Police: Man's suicide attempt caused crash that killed couple

N.H. authorities say former exec said he was trying to kill himself when his auto hit SUV, killing a man and pregnant woman

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Chevy 2 65]

The only epidemic is the cesspool D-RAT party.

 

[Nick Fury]

The main appeal to a gun suicide is how instant it is. Who wants to twitch out on the end of a rope for a minute or have second thoughts after huffing fumes..?

 

[fencer]

Meh, I really don't have a problem with raising awareness about suicide, but I don't understand the purpose of doing so at a gun shop. I am pretty sure that the person that goes into the gun store to buy a gun to commit suicide, is aware.
What's the point? Are they hoping that it will cause a bystander to intervene?
" Bob? What are you doing here? I thought you hated guns?!" " Wait a minute... don't do it Bob!"

 

[Len-2A Training]

Meh, I really don't have a problem with raising awareness about suicide, but I don't understand the purpose of doing so at a gun shop. I am pretty sure that the person that goes into the gun store to buy a gun to commit suicide, is aware.
What's the point? Are they hoping that it will cause a bystander to intervene?
" Bob? What are you doing here? I thought you hated guns?!" " Wait a minute... don't do it Bob!"

Now mandated by law, not an option by FFLs in MA.

 

[crispnipz]

The last day an American should have cared about a Brit's dumb anti-gun opinion was July 3, 1776.

 

[Twigg]

it's hard to tell if someone's suicidal. unless you can read minds. Back in'75 when I arrived at my first duty station (Adak, Ak) the LT in charge of my department killed himself. Over what? Being assigned to isolated duty? He had better quarters ,better food and a better future. I made rank, educated myself and earned respect & self confidence.

 

[67ray]

Ralph Demicco was he the original owner, or the guy that bought the place 5-6 years ago? Guess there is nothing wrong with some pamphlets if it makes someone reflect on what they may be about to do.


I'd like to see one and decide if they have a political or other slant to the message.

 

[Uzi2]

Speaking of the BBC......I listen to a local NPR station to keep up with the commie propaganda while driving to town or post office.......during the BBC news hour they claimed the impeachment charges against president Trump were "abuse of power and obstruction of justice.......not obstruction of congress which was the real bogus charge.

Nobody corrected the person so the propaganda seed was planted. Every social JUSTICE warrior heard that Trump was obstructing them.

NPR, PBS and all the affiliate college radio stations that carry this propaganda should be taken off the air.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I’m not sure what you are saying here. Clearly some people do.

Very very few. Look into the stats. Suicide is almost always a crime of passion. You don't do 3-5 days of planning for it. You decide today's the day and find the most expedient means. Kurk Cobain comes to mind. Gun suicide? Yes. Severely premeditated?? Nope.

 

[Bonesinium]

Very very few. Look into the stats. Suicide is almost always a crime of passion. You don't do 3-5 days of planning for it. You decide today's the day and find the most expedient means. Kurk Cobain comes to mind. Gun suicide? Yes. Severely premeditated?? Nope.

How in the hell would you know if someone did or didn’t plan their suicide? You know the thoughts of dead people?

 

[drgrant]

Very very few. Look into the stats. Suicide is almost always a crime of passion. You don't do 3-5 days of planning for it. You decide today's the day and find the most expedient means. Kurk Cobain comes to mind. Gun suicide? Yes. Severely premeditated?? Nope.

Lol how do you know? this is impossible to prove in most cases, because the person that did it, is dead.

Not to mention there are plenty of murder-suicides etc where someone bought a gun or (whatever) days in advance and then went ahead and, did it.

Also there are plenty of people for medical reasons that kill themselves. There are some countries in europe that allow it, for example. . So people with things like degenerative brain
diseases likely plan their suicide vacations well in advance because they decided they'd rather day than turn into a rubber lips/can't remember own name, etc, club member.

-Mike

 

[Dennis in MA]

Ya haven't done any research, have you? The % of non-successful suiciders is fairly high. Researchers research. Crime of passion.

But think about it: The success rate on suicides is fairly low. Absymally low for non-gun suicides. If you were planning on killing yourself, wouldn't you attempt to do a good job?

 

[drgrant]

Ya haven't done any research, have you? The % of non-successful suiciders is fairly high. Researchers research. Crime of passion.

Call me when researchers have figured out how to retrieve the thoughts of dead people. Maybe you get data if the person left a letter or something, but most of the time that
never happens.

But think about it: The success rate on suicides is fairly low. Absymally low for non-gun suicides. If you were planning on killing yourself, wouldn't you attempt to do a good job?

Depends on how you categorize this stuff. How many of these people are actually just chumps/attention whores vs people who actually wanted to die? And we have to get the
attempt-ee to actually admit that, and many of those failures are not in the best state of mind to do that. Like the teenage girl that cut herself probably said she tried to kill herself, but wasn't really that serious about it.

 

[Bonesinium]

Ya haven't done any research, have you?

What research shows how long people that committed suicide were planning on committing suicide? If there is data on this, I’d love to see it. So no, I guess I haven’t, because I’m unaware of any such information, or how it’s possibly obtained.

I would agree people who commit suicide very rarely leave detailed messages, so there’s probably very few suicides we know were planned in advanced. That doesn’t mean those are the only suicides that were planned. Surely you don’t believe that?

 

[Fixxah]

Spoken like true subjects.

 

[Irish65]

So there's some conflating going on here regarding suicide attempts verses successful suicides.... Yes, most suicide attempts likely are poorly thought out "crimes of passion", a mix of cries for help, and attention-seeking behavior.... and they fail, usually by design.

Most successful suicides are planned, premeditated, and a long time coming.

There's a huge difference between the borderline chick who shows up in the ED for the eighth time saying " I took all my benzos and ambien," and the profoundly depressed chick who spends a week in the ICU after a massive trycyclic OD..... The second one is serious about offing herself, has probably tried before, is learning, and upping her lethality.

Most people who successfully kill themselves have been in emotional agony for a long time, have often made serious attempts previously, and if their shocked loved ones have the guts to do a post-mortem on the suicider's life, its there to see.

Let me address some outliers:

Sociopathic cowards: Charles Stewart..... Kill themselves because they don't have the balls to face the music.... F#$k them. (Thought about putting Epstein in this category, but I'm honestly not sure he wasn't murdered)

Dad who kills himself and the kids after wife serves him with divorce papers..... Yes, that's a spontaneous crime of passion.... But it's not really about suicide, pain, self-loathing.... It's about control and punishing someone.

People with ALS, cancer, Vasquez from Aliens..... that's not suicide.... That's going out on your own terms.

 

[jct61765]

Meh, I really don't have a problem with raising awareness about suicide, but I don't understand the purpose of doing so at a gun shop. I am pretty sure that the person that goes into the gun store to buy a gun to commit suicide, is aware.
What's the point? Are they hoping that it will cause a bystander to intervene?
" Bob? What are you doing here? I thought you hated guns?!" " Wait a minute... don't do it Bob!"

To make everyone else feel like they are doing something. If someone really wants to kill themselves, they’re going to do it.

 

[10thSFFD]

Ya haven't done any research, have you? The % of non-successful suiciders is fairly high. Researchers research. Crime of passion.

But think about it: The success rate on suicides is fairly low. Absymally low for non-gun suicides. If you were planning on killing yourself, wouldn't you attempt to do a good job?

Air Force 2019 Suicides Surge to Highest in 3 Decades

The number of suicides in the active-duty Air Force exceeded the worst years of the post-9/11 period; other branches also suffering

www.voanews.com

According to preliminary figures, the Air Force had 84 suicides among active-duty members last year, up from 60 the year before. The jump followed five years of relative stability, with the service’s yearly totals fluctuating between 60 and 64. Official figures won’t be published until later this year and could vary slightly from preliminary data.

Air Force officials, who confirmed the 2019 total, said they knew of no higher number in recent years. Data and studies previously published by the Pentagon and Air Force show that 64 suicides in 2015 had been the highest total for the Air Force in this century. A 2009 Air Force study said suicides between 1990 and 2004 averaged 42 a year and never exceeded 62.

“Suicide is a difficult national problem without easily identifiable solutions that has the full attention of leadership,” Lt. Gen. Brian Kelly, the Air Force’s deputy chief of staff for manpower, personnel and services, said in a statement. He said the Air Force is focused on immediate, midterm and long-range solutions to a problem faced throughout the military.

Suicide risk factors are often thought to include stress related to deployment to combat zones in Iraq and Afghanistan. But a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 2013 concluded, based on an assessment of current and former military personnel over a seven-year period, that combat experience and other deployment-related factors were not associated with increased risk of suicide. Instead the study’s results pointed to numerous other factors, including being male, engaging in heavy or binge drinking, and bipolar disorder.

The Navy last year saw its active-duty suicides rise by four, to 72, and the Marine Corps total dropped by 10, to 47. All the 2019 numbers include confirmed and suspected suicides and are subject to revision based on further medical review. It is not uncommon for a service’s total to get adjusted up or down after further review, but any changes are slight.

The Army declined to reveal its 2019 preliminary total, but The Associated Press determined it was little changed from the previous year’s 139. The Army’s figure is typically the highest in the military because it is by far the biggest service, with about 480,000 soldiers on active duty this year, compared with about 332,000 in the Air Force.

The Air Force in the mid-1990s pioneered a suicide prevention program that was seen as effective, and at various times since the U.S. became entangled in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan the other services have seen troubling increases in their suicide numbers. The Marine Corps, for example, saw its numbers jump from 37 to 57 between 2016 and 2018.