BATFE Harassing Gun Show Buyers?

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From the Virginia Citizens Defense League:

BATFE sinks to new low in Richmond

I purposely put this under "All United States" because what BATFE did here in Richmond, VA was supposedly a model for what might be coming to the rest of the states. I hope it is now quashed, but I suggest that gun organizations across the country have their eyes open for this abuse in their own state:

For VCDL's VA-ALERT today:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show! The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.

If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters, went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000 this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.

We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not. Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's name, badge number, and department.

Philip Van Cleave, President, VCDL
 
I'm reporting this for discussion as it came to me in an eList.

I don't live anywhere near VA, so I have no idea about the validity of the story. I do have a hard time believing that they would put as much resources as would be necessary to connect local PD to NICS checks and hit the road so fast that they could pull this off to harass people.

Anyone with more 1st hand info available on this?

e.g. I'm in MA and the two gun shows that I sometimes attend here are 50 and 100 miles from home. I've only ever bought one cartridge handgun at a gun show (have bought a couple of air pistols too) in my 29 years of shooting (gun show prices usually suck). But if the local PD knocks on my door, my Wife is usually with me at the gun shows, the PD knows that I am a Constable (LE), own guns (we need a permit here just to think about guns) and once served on the PD as a Special/Reserve PO (for ~18 years). However, if they visit my neighbors there would be trouble . . . one is a nasty senile old man (troublemaker), another is a convicted drug dealer (who I don't want to know anything about me) and all but one are your typical sheeple (that one is a Russian who wants me to take him shooting my AK-47/SAR-1 . . . once I finally get around to cleaning off the ton of cosmo that Century shipped it with).
 
What I'm trying to say above is the following:

- I'm not sure that I'm buying this story as totally true?
- I can' imagine the BATFE and local PDs putting the resources out there to pull this off in MA. Local PDs are cash-strapped and just getting a response to a real call is costly, taking men/women off the street to harass gun buyers would be very expensive (unless funded as an "anti-terrorism" grant).
- My guess is that this may have really happened to a handful of people who might have been on a "watch" list, but that it is not a widespread thing, like the story seems to portray.

So, lets not panic over this story, but look at it with a very critical eye!
 
IF it's true (and it sounds hokey), and IF they do that up here, they're in for a BIG surprise. Tell my neighbor I'm buying a gun, and they'll say "That's nice, we feel so safe knowing he's armed too" or "Who gives a shit, we don't care".

FWIW, I work several gun shows a year up here, and I've seen obvious BATFE agents, but I haven't seen anything like this.

I very suspect of the validity. I'd think they'll get sued HARD if they were to keep doing this, assuming it is true.

Hell, I bet the ACLU would do that one for FREE, and they don't like guns, remember.
 
Possible? Yes.

Probable? I don't know, this sounds too much like a potential myth in the making. Perhaps they were checking on one (or more) persons of interest and this is getting blown out of proportion?

I'd want to know more from other sources first.
 
Playing the Devil's Advocate, here, could it be a BATFE placed rumour to see the reaction to this, before actually doing it? If reaction was low, I could see them attempting it.

Just checked this out. It appears to be a Free Republic Hoax, since VCDL doesn't have this anywheres on their website, and they're suppossedly the source. Looks like a hoax or rumour to me.
 
FOIA Documents from BATFE and VSP admitting to this rousting of legal gun show buyers in VA.

http://www.vcdl.org/pdf/gunshow.pdf


NOTE: Since each dealer does his own NICS check in MA, this scheme wouldn't work here. Ditto for NH from what I've seen at their gun shows.
 
It's called a "Fishing Expedition". Not very legal, last I knew. Goes WAY past entrapment.

I would think that a "Fishing Expedition" is not necessarily illegal per se. It's the perceived harassment and possible abuse/misuse of the 4473 information that is the illegal part. Unless you have reason to believe that a specific buyer has broken a law or that a particular seller is engaged in wholesale fraudulent sales (at which a warrant would be nice to have) this was a plain and simple abuse of authority. Not to mention a waste of tax dollars (the salaries of the LEOs who could have been doing other LE duties).

I would love for Cross-x to chime in from his POV and legal expertise.
 
IMNSHO, that kind of fishing clearly constitutes harrassment and may violate Search and Questioning provisions of the Constitution. I'm fairly sure that's highly illegal up in VT, but our state Constitution gives us more rights than the Federal one.
 
Nickle,

I'm fairly sure that's highly illegal up in VT, but our state Constitution gives us more rights than the Federal one.

I am not arguing that what they did is illegal, I am only trying to make specific charges. The term "fishing expedition", while highly descriptive and satisfying to us gun-owners, does not, AFAIK, consitute a chargeable offense. Harassment, mis-use of confidential data, and waste of tax-payer money describes the specific acts that BATFE needs to answer to.

We are both still on the same side, right?
 
FPrice said:
We are both still on the same side, right?

Very much so, and I highly doubt F Troop will EVER get charged. They've done far worse and gotten away with it. I doubt things will change soon.

Like someone has said, it's that difficult time...........
 
Chris said:
Lon Horiuchi has yet to spend one night in jail for shooting in the head, an unarmed woman carrying a baby.

Must've been a "semi-automatic assault baby". I agree, they've gotten away with murder, what's harrassment compared to that?
 
MORE information is coming out:

" Records Confirm at Least Seven ATF Gun Show 'Stings'
Records Confirm at Least Seven ATF Gun Show 'Stings'
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialR...E20050901a.html



(CNSNews.com) - Virginia State Police records confirm that at least seven gun show "sting" operations since July of 2004 have targeted gun buyers in the Richmond, Va., area. The documents support allegations that protected information may have been illegally shared with local police and gun buyers' relatives and neighbors.

Cybercast News Service previously reported that nearly 500 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) agents, state troopers, county and city police officers participated in an "ATF Task Force" targeting the Showmasters gun show in Richmond, Va., on Aug. 13 and 14.

Following that initial report, Cybercast News Service obtained Virginia State Police (VSP) records that show at least six other stings have been conducted in the Richmond area since the summer of last year.

According to a four page undated memo written by Virginia State Police (VSP) Capt. Robert G. Kemmler and obtained in a Freedom of Information Act request (FOIA), the law enforcement activities at the Showmasters gun show on Aug. 13-14 involved "the same method of operation as previous gun shows. "
 
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