Basic Pistol Powerpoint

[Another_David]

can the person sitting in the back of the room REALLY see it???

walk to the back and show them. seriously. If you've got a hundred people in the class and don't want to bother then use the power points and hand out your certificates but it's not going to be a good class.

I like technology as much as anyone but there's no substitute for the real thing.

 

[Bob P]

walk to the back and show them. seriously.

So while you're walking to the back of the room what are the other 29 people in the class doing?

I'm serious as well.

 

[M1911]

Show the PP image and send the magazine around the group so they can touch/feel it. If I'm holding a revolver up that's about 8"x5" can the person sitting in the back of the room REALLY see it???

In my class, with 2-4 students tops, absolutely they CAN see it. An NRA Basic Pistol class taught with a small number of students in a small room is simply not the same as teaching something like software development in a class room with 30 students. You are conflating the two and they simply aren't the same.

So while you're walking to the back of the room what are the other 29 people in the class doing?

You don't teach Basic Pistol to 30 people.

Why show a picture of a gun when I have a gun in my hand? I don't point to a picture of a revolver and say "push this release forward to open the cylinder." I pick up the revolver and demonstrate it.

You guys doing the NRA classes - outstanding that you're doing this and I'm sure you know your SH with respect to the subject, but how much work have you put in to perfecting your presentation skills/presentation building ability?

Actually, quite a bit. My first experience teaching was in the academic world more than 20 years ago and I've taught in a number of different environments since then. I did take public speaking in college and got an A.

Here is a comment from one of my recent students:

simply cannot thank you enough for the time and attention that you gave me, and my friend H.
Simply put, you are a wonderful teacher, and a gracious and generous host.

Her friend, H., is a very experienced school teacher and H. stopped me to compliment me on what a good teacher I am. So, yes, I actually do know what I'm doing in the classroom.

Once again, I have to ask, when teaching a Basic Pistol class, what is it that you want to get across via PowerPoint?

You need something for the auditory learners (what you're saying), for the visual learners (this is your PP slides & practical demonstration) and for the kinesthetic learners (handling the guns, ammo etc).

I do have something for auditory learners -- what I'm saying. I do have something for visual learners -- handouts, maybe a poster or two, and the NRA Basic Pistol book that they were all required to read before the class. And I do have something for kinesthetic learners -- dry handling in the classroom and then actual range time.

 

[Another_David]

So while you're walking to the back of the room what are the other 29 people in the class doing?

I'm serious as well.

Waiting patiently. It's a 9 hour class. You have maybe five props. There's time.

 

[Bob P]

walk to the back and show them. seriously. If you've got a hundred people in the class and don't want to bother then use the power points and hand out your certificates but it's not going to be a good class.

I like technology as much as anyone but there's no substitute for the real thing.

1) Don't edit your post after someone's already responded to it

2) 100 people in the class is too many. Honestly 30 is too many. Ideal class size for something like this with 1 instructor is 20 tops.

'There is no substitute for the real thing'. I agree. So, you've got 20 people and you need to teach them the parts of a revolver. You have 1 instructor and 1 revolver. You can't use graphics of any kind. If you're going to show, say, groups of 3 at a time each point you're trying to illustrate on the real thing how long is this class going to last? And what are the other 27 people going to be doing when you're showing your groups of 3? How much down time are they going to have?

Your class would be outstanding with groups of 5 or less. Anything more than that and you're going to lose your audience to boredom during the down time.

But don't take my advice, I just get paid an obscene amount of money to design training courses. What do I know.

 

[Bob P]

Waiting patiently. It's a 9 hour class. You have maybe five props. There's time.

Wrong. You're getting bored, you're looking at your watch and you're thinking to yourself "I Fing hate the state of MA for making me sit through this class.

9 hours for basic pistol?????????? Seriously?????

 

[Len-2A Training]

So while you're walking to the back of the room what are the other 29 people in the class doing?

I'm serious as well.

As Bob points out, if you are going to do this for each type gun/part in a BP course and you have >10 students, you are going to stretch this class out from 8 hrs to maybe 10 hrs. And you are going to bore the other 29 students to death while you are going one-on-one with each student that is not them.

As an example: I advertise my MA Gun Law Seminar as a 3 hour seminar, but the actual time is highly variable depending on questions asked by students. I've run this seminar in ~2.5 hours when very few questions were asked.In contrast, I ran it last month at Manchester Firing Line where Jim McLoud, his Son and Tom Browne (employee and Instructor who teaches his courses at MFL) were in attendance. Due to the number and depth of questions asked by these three in particular, the seminar actually ran >3.5 hours! I was pleased, as I like the interaction and it shows that people are paying attention and getting the info that they need from the seminar. I do use slides, but they are bullet points that I talk around to expand to the info they need to hear.

 

[Bob P]

In my class, with 2-4 students tops, absolutely they CAN see it. An NRA Basic Pistol class taught with a small number of students in a small room is simply not the same as teaching something like software development in a class room with 30 students. You are conflating the two and they simply aren't the same.

2 - 4 students I agree, you don't need PP. You do need handouts though for the people who learn by reading. You DO need to give those people something.

You don't teach Basic Pistol to 30 people.

Why show a picture of a gun when I have a gun in my hand? I don't point to a picture of a revolver and say "push this release forward to open the cylinder." I pick up the revolver and demonstrate it.

See my above. For 2 to 4 people this is fine.

Actually, quite a bit. My first experience teaching was in the academic world more than 20 years ago and I've taught in a number of different environments since then. I did take public speaking in college and got an A.

have you taken design classes? Adult learning theory? Human Performance Improvement?


Do NOT make the mistake of assuming that your particular learning style is the only one. There are 4 distinct learning styles
http://www.metamath.com/lsweb/fourls.htm

You likely use 2 of these and, like most people do, discount the others as being less effective because they are for YOU. That doesn't mean that your audience will all be like you. I'm glad someone took the class and gave you good feedback, but how do you know they're all liking it? Are you doing a post class evaluation (i.e. a Kirkpatrick Level 2)?
http://www.businessballs.com/kirkpatricklearningevaluationmodel.htm

If you're not, and you're serious about doing this right, you should.


You would never take serious shooting instruction from someone who was self-taught, why do you think that's acceptable for designing/delivering training?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Wrong. You're getting bored, you're looking at your watch and you're thinking to yourself "I Fing hate the state of MA for making me sit through this class.

9 hours for basic pistol?????????? Seriously?????

Bob, NRA advertises BP as an 8 hour course, with specific times stated for each lesson (including range time).

When I teach NRA Personal Protection in the Home, NRA calls it an 8 hour course. When I teach it I add the optional video and including range time it actually takes 9-10 hours (depending on number of students waiting for their range time). [I also send them a link to another video that runs >1 hour and suggest that they watch it before the class. We discuss it in the class law segment.] I can't even change that number (8) on the NRAInstructors.org page to reflect reality.

 

[M1911]

I'm glad someone took the class and gave you good feedback, but how do you know they're all liking it? Are you doing a post class evaluation

Yes, every class.

You would never take serious shooting instruction from someone who was self-taught, why do you think that's acceptable for designing/delivering training?

Like every other NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, I was trained by an NRA Training Counselor. The curriculum of NRA Basic Pistol was developed by the NRA.

First, you don't need a degree in adult education to be an effective NRA Basic Pistol instructor. Second, given the "success" of our educational system, I'm more than a little skeptical of theoretical educational training.

Once again, I ask you, what do you think you will get across with a PowerPoint slide that you can't get across with the gun in your hand?

 

[M1911]

9 hours for basic pistol?????????? Seriously?????

Yes. And, no, I don't do it in a single day.

Have you ever taught a Basic Pistol class?

 

[Bob P]

Yes, every class.


Like every other NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, I was trained by an NRA Training Counselor.

First, you don't need a degree in adult education to be an effective NRA Basic Pistol instructor. Second, given the "success" of our educational system, I'm more than a little skeptical of theoretical educational training.

Me too. Good thing this isn't education, it's training. Education is designed around imparting knowledge which is conceptual. Training is designed around imparting skill which has an immediate practical application.

I didn't say you needed a degree in education. You don't need to be a formally trained shooter to win Top Shot either as was proved by Season 3, but you do need to be willing to listen and learn from instructors and other shooters. Those that prove incapable or unwilling to adapt and learn new techniques get eliminated.

Had you not put yourself out there as an 'expert' and started to criticize another member for his program design - which, by the way, was designed well - I wouldn't have said a word to you.

 

[Bob P]

Yes. And, no, I don't do it in a single day.

Have you ever taught a Basic Pistol class?

No I haven't. I was confusing it with the much shorter course required for the MA LTC.

That being said, the points are the same. You STILL need something for the visual/non-verbal learners.

 

[Bob P]

Bob, NRA advertises BP as an 8 hour course, with specific times stated for each lesson (including range time).

When I teach NRA Personal Protection in the Home, NRA calls it an 8 hour course. When I teach it I add the optional video and including range time it actually takes 9-10 hours (depending on number of students waiting for their range time). [I also send them a link to another video that runs >1 hour and suggest that they watch it before the class. We discuss it in the class law segment.] I can't even change that number (8) on the NRAInstructors.org page to reflect reality.

Thanks Len. I was confusing it with the much shorter one for the MA LTC/FID.

The need to hit all 4 learning styles becomes even MORE important for an 8 hour class.

 

[Bob P]

So here are the learning objectives for the course - from the NRA's site

The gun safety rules.
- The parts of handguns, and how they function.
- How to handle handguns safely.
- The components and proper storage of ammunition.
- The fundamentals of pistol shooting.
- Firing range procedures.
- How to shoot from the bench rest and standing positions.
- How to sight in a handgun and score a target.
- How to safely clean a handgun.
- The basic guidelines for buying a handgun.
- Ways to enjoy shooting activities after the course.
- The legal aspects of firearms ownership and use

Frankly, I don't see how you can effectively train on the subjects I bolded above WITHOUT some kind of visual reference. For very small groups of 2 or 4 you can use the actual gun/ammo for the first couple, but what about the conceptual bits? Range procedures? Legal aspects?

Failing to give the visual learners something to refer to, to look at, to absorb while you are talking is doing them a HUGE disservice.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Bob, you are thinking of Home Firearms Safety. It's a 4 hour course with no range time.

There are schools out there running this for 20-30 students at a time with one instructor (not sure if they use an assistant or not). It has to be challenging to keep everyone engaged.

 

[Bob P]

Training at it's most effective encompasses the idea of 'Show/do'. I'm going to show you and then you're going to do it. I'm sure the NRA took all of this into account when building out their courses.

Sure, you don't HAVE to use PP - just like you don't HAVE to use a mobile phone to make a call - but you need to use something - a chart, a handout, an image, a direct demonstration.

Just because some idiots misuse PP doesn't negate it's effectiveness if used properly. When PP is used correctly it is MUCH more effective than a static chart.

Lets look at the learning styles:

Verbal - you've got them. They want to be told what to do. They learn by listening.

Visual/verbal. They want to see what you're talking about while your talking. They need something. You demonstrating works, but unless they can see you clearly they're at a disadvantage. For a group larger than 5 they need some kind of image beyond you demonstrating or they're going to get frustrated.

Visual/non-verbal. They need to be able to read something. Period. They're the ones reading the handouts & focusing on your slides during your presentation. Don't get mad at them when they do, this is how they learn. It's NOT that they're ignoring you. Make sure your handouts, your slides your whatever provide them enough information that they can learn from it. These are he people that prefer learning from a book.

Kinesthetic - these are the ones that need to 'do'. The range time has this covered.

By skimping on the images during training you're cheating the middle 2 styles. Period.

 

[Bob P]

Bob, you are thinking of Home Firearms Safety. It's a 4 hour course with no range time.

There are schools out there running this for 20-30 students at a time with one instructor (not sure if they use an assistant or not). It has to be challenging to keep everyone engaged.

I would say so!! Especially if they're skimping on the visuals.

I don't want to be coming off like a dick, but you guys have hit a topic I am very passionate about. Hearing some of this is like going onto DU and hearing them talk about 'common sense gun laws'.

 

[Admin]

Pissing in the wind Bob.

 

[Bob P]

Pissing in the wind Bob.

See my sig line.

 

[KMaurer]

So it's OK to have a poster listing the 3 basic safety rules or showing various parts of a gun, but the exact same image is bad if projected onto a screen? It's just a tool, unfortunately one that's grossly misused in the majority of instances, but still just a tool.

Ken

 

[M1911]

So it's OK to have a poster listing the 3 basic safety rules or showing various parts of a gun, but the exact same image is bad if projected onto a screen? It's just a tool, unfortunately one that's grossly misused in the majority of instances, but still just a tool.

Ken:

I'm sure you've sat through more than a few PowerPoint presentations. So you know very well that the dynamic in the classroom tends to change quite dramatically between the two. It shouldn't. But it does.

 

[FSTC]

 

[TBalls]

I'm on the side of thinking that there's nothing wrong with a ppt presentation as long as it's used properly. Throwing slides up on the wall and reading them is never going to be an effective teaching method. In my experience, the presentation is more to keep the instructor on track and maybe give a few useful bullets, but if the instructor is an engaging speaker the students will barely notice it (the ppt).
There have been many instances where I will pose a question to the students and I'll get some very divergent answers; all while the correct answer is right in front of them on the screen.

Bottom line, if the instructor is doing his/her job, the powerpoint won't detract from the learning experience. People who throw up a projection and do nothing more than read the slides shouldn't be teaching at all IMO.

 

[KMaurer]

Ken:

I'm sure you've sat through more than a few PowerPoint presentations. So you know very well that the dynamic in the classroom tends to change quite dramatically between the two. It shouldn't. But it does.

In my experience, that only happens when the instructors get confused and think that they're "giving a PowerPoint presentation" rather than teaching a class. I've seen people get overly focused on their flip charts or overhead slides just as a lot of people do on PP. Either the media are tools or the instructors are. If it's the instructor, don't blame the media.

Ken

 

[Mathetes]

I would agree with you if you just talked through the powerpoints in the class bullet by bullet---boring! In my case that is not all I do. People learn in different ways as most of you know. Some of visual, tactile etc. I think it's a service to our students if they can see, hear and touch the various elements needed to learn how to handle a firearm correctly and safely. Personally I love the visual stuff, if someone just yapped at me for 3 hours I would want to dig out my ears with forks.

In my basic classes PowerPoints, handouts, SIRT pistols, lecture, and hands-on experience at the range, I hope meets the needs of every learning style my students might have.

I also think that a lot of instructors use power points because they teaching in larger class venues. Large classes tend to become PowerPoint focused. Early on I decided that I would teach no more than 5 or 6 students at a time so I could focus on the student rather then the lesson. Overall I guess it comes down to motivation. I we in this thing to make some money or to promote the Second Amendment and really teach people what it means to be responsible firearms owner.