Bad Sigs?

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http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=170847

Gun deal misfire$: Recalled pistols waste tax dollars
By Dave Wedge
Boston Herald Chief Enterprise Reporter

Thursday, December 7, 2006 - Updated: 12:52 AM EST

Faulty high-tech guns sold to state police in a deal brokered by a retired trooper-turned-salesman jammed during tests and were yanked off the streets, resulting in hefty training costs and leaving cops dangerously vulnerable.
 
The State got a hell of a deal on those Sigs and the company tested and replaced them pretty quickly -which is top notch in my book. The only place I could see money being 'wasted', was the contractual re-training for the old firearms.
 
Why are they trying to hang out the retired tropper turned salesman. I feel bad that the active duty troopers could have been put in harms way but it was not the salesman's fault.

I know it said as required by contract but is it an insurance thing where the troopers had to be re-trained on weapons they should already be familiar with?
 
I don't understand how someone would be in harms way if they took their new guns to the range and fired several hundred rounds to confirm that they were functioning properly. Obviously the ones that didn't work had a problem, but if you run a case of 500 rounds through a pistol without hiccups, I would feel comfortable with it and have confidence that it would work.

B
 
I don't understand how someone would be in harms way if they took their new guns to the range and fired several hundred rounds to confirm that they were functioning properly. Obviously the ones that didn't work had a problem, but if you run a case of 500 rounds through a pistol without hiccups, I would feel comfortable with it and have confidence that it would work.

B

I wonder, for the average PO, the average time between removing thier pistol from thier holster is? I bet there is a large fraction who only remove them for qualification shooting, reholster them, and don't think about them again until next year..
 
Actually looking at the silver lining of this. Wouldn't those pistols now be Ma. complaint and could be sold in Ma. at a discount?
 
I wonder, for the average PO, the average time between removing thier pistol from thier holster is? I bet there is a large fraction who only remove them for qualification shooting, reholster them, and don't think about them again until next year..


My guess is that the vast majority use the flashlight more.

B
 
They don't fire 500 rds, unless they are gun junkies and using their own money for ammo.

Standard police qualification is 50 rds. Probably used 100 rds (that's typical) . . . this is what the media calls "training". It was probably only a qualification run with the new guns.
 
Sadly, this is typical of what the Herald has become. A big headline and graphic on the front page, and a small, almost meaningless story inside on page 4.

I read this the way most of the rest of you seem to have. They found a problem at the range with a small number of weapons. As precaution, they recalled all of them, sent them back, tested and corrected as needed.

Personally, I'd be inclined to call that customer service, but I guess that's why I don't write for the Herald.

Gary
 
Sadly, this is typical of what the Herald has become. A big headline and graphic on the front page, and a small, almost meaningless story inside on page 4.

Exactly. This is typical Herald sensationalism, with little or no news value.

JT
 
They don't fire 500 rds, unless they are gun junkies and using their own money for ammo.

Standard police qualification is 50 rds. Probably used 100 rds (that's typical) . . . this is what the media calls "training". It was probably only a qualification run with the new guns.

They use to call it Fam Fire in the service. Not surprised at all. The important thing is that they FEEL like they know what they are doing and are convinced that they have the best training. Good way to turn out unconsciously incompetents.

[hmmm]

B
 
Exactly. This is typical Herald sensationalism, with little or no news value.

JT

As long as they get the really important picture of the scantily clad young woman in, it's okay. Not that I object per se, but I'd like to see something of news value.

Speaking of which, did anyone see the stupid editorial telling the President he should implement all of the recommendations of the Iraq Surrender Group?

Apparenlty, Jules Crittendon doesn't write the editorials.

sigh.

Gary
 
Originally Posted by LenS
They don't fire 500 rds, unless they are gun junkies and using their own money for ammo.

Standard police qualification is 50 rds. Probably used 100 rds (that's typical) . . . this is what the media calls "training". It was probably only a qualification run with the new guns.

They use to call it Fam Fire in the service. Not surprised at all. The important thing is that they FEEL like they know what they are doing and are convinced that they have the best training. Good way to turn out unconsciously incompetents.



B

There ARE some of us who, train, like ours, and others, depend on it. SPG
 
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IMO giving the troopers DAKs sounds like a solution to a problem that
didn't exist. I'm not sure what they had before.... I thought they
had regular DA/SA 226's, but they very well could be DAOs.

This seems to be more evidence of SIGARMS continually sliding/drifting
CS and QC issues. The "dud rate" among even the P series sigs
seems to be much higher now that they're under full US
production.

Yes, they'll "make it right" but the problem is that they had a decent
rep for having super reliable product... EG, a defective P-series gun used to
be an anomaly, and now "factory defects" seem to be a much
more common occurrence. It used to be when you brought home
one of those blue, black, or red boxes, you -knew- the gun was going to
work right.

-Mike
 
IMO giving the troopers DAKs sounds like a solution to a problem that didn't exist.
I disagree. It takes less training time to teach someone to use a DAK (or Glock safe-action, or S&W M&P) than it does to teach them to use a DA/SA. No decocker to manipulate prior to holstering and, most importantly, no need to learn two different trigger pulls.
 
I disagree. It takes less training time to teach someone to use a DAK (or Glock safe-action, or S&W M&P) than it does to teach them to use a DA/SA. No decocker to manipulate prior to holstering and, most importantly, no need to learn two different trigger pulls.

My point was though, if they had a training regimen in
place around one type of gun already, and it was working,
why change it? MSP has had the P226 for several
years now. If something was that drastically wrong with
training people how to use it, one would think they would
have changed platforms a long time ago.

Yeah, I can agree that training on a DAK or whatever
is easier, but I don't agree with the industry assertion
that light-DAO triggers are the greatest thing since
sliced bread- people basically go around saying it's
like the difference between rubbing two sticks together
and using matches- and that's basically a wonderfully
engineered fallacy designed to sell more handguns.

I just don't see the point in disposing of perfectly
useable firearms. It just sounds to me like this was an
excuse for someone to spend money on guns that they
didn't need.

-Mike
 
My point was though, if they had a training regimen in place around one type of gun already, and it was working, why change it? MSP has had the P226 for several years now. If something was that drastically wrong with training people how to use it, one would think they would have changed platforms a long time ago.
They are always training new troopers and retraining their existing troopers. With a light DAO trigger, they can either train them to the same level in less time (read: money) or train them to a higher level in the same time.

As for replacing the guns, the actual cost was quite low, due to the low price given by SIG and the high trade-in value. So the out-of-pocket cost was perhaps $100 per trooper. How many hours of training saved would it take to pay for that $100? Not much.

It takes quite a bit of time to train someone to competency with DA/SA. I'd argue that it is much easier to train someone to operate a 1911 (with the manual safety) than it takes to train the same person to the same level of speed and accuracy with DA/SA. Training time for a light DAO is even less, and time is money.
 
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It takes quite a bit of time to train someone to competency with DA/SA. I'd argue that it is much easier to train someone to operate a 1911 (with the manual safety) than it takes to train the same person to the same level of speed and accuracy with DA/SA. Training time for a light DAO is even less, and time is money.


Having experience with Law Enforcement Training I must Strongly disagree with your statement. Although first shot will be erratic, second and subsequent will be fine. Teaching a DA trigger pull is not as easy and takes more time for the masses. The hand strength and dexterity needs to be improved.

The other problem I see is teaching the non shooting LE Officer who has carried SA/DA there is no more decocker and the trigger pull is totally different. Most street cops do not practice enough to make any transition easy.

Was the purchase a good idea? From my perspective and experience, I think the change to DAK is one of the best decisions made in some time. VT State Police went the same way except with the 229RDAK.

Regards,
 
RGS: I'm trying to understand what it is that you disagree with...

I think we both agree that changing to the DAK was a good idea, and that training time with the DAK will be less than with DA/SA.
 
RGS: I'm trying to understand what it is that you disagree with...

I think we both agree that changing to the DAK was a good idea, and that training time with the DAK will be less than with DA/SA.

"Training time for a light DAO is even less" is what I disagree with. It will take more time in the long run but it is a safer firearm for LE use IMNSHO [grin]

Regards,
 
Why is that?

With DA/SA, you have to teach them to decock before holstering, and you have to teach them two trigger pulls.

With light DAO, you don't have to teach them to decock before holstering and you only have to teach them a single trigger pull.

So it would seem to me that it would be easier to train them to use a light DAO than a DA/SA.

Why would it take less time to train them on DA/SA than DAO?
 
Why is that?

With DA/SA, you have to teach them to decock before holstering, and you have to teach them two trigger pulls.

With light DAO, you don't have to teach them to decock before holstering and you only have to teach them a single trigger pull.

So it would seem to me that it would be easier to train them to use a light DAO than a DA/SA.

Why would it take less time to train them on DA/SA than DAO?

We are drifting here. I will PM
 
Why is that?

With DA/SA, you have to teach them to decock before holstering, and you have to teach them two trigger pulls.

With light DAO, you don't have to teach them to decock before holstering and you only have to teach them a single trigger pull.

So it would seem to me that it would be easier to train them to use a light DAO than a DA/SA.

Why would it take less time to train them on DA/SA than DAO?

What's the big deal with operating the decocking lever before holstering? A simple thumb motion does it and it is almost automatic. I'd have a bigger problem with the SA in a 1911. Reholster? Cocked and locked? I don't know...
 
We fired a minumum of 200 rounds a year per firearm for our annual qualifications. That is the state min. as per the AG's office. New recruits fire in the area of 500 rounds with their new duty firearm (no off duty are permitted until graduation) and then 1200 rounds in the academy. Any flaws would surely show up by that point.
 
I can't speak for MSP or what's done in the MA Academy, but I can speak for annual qualification (MA muni departments) and that is 50 rds/year. Many PDs have them fire their 50 carry rounds first as a "practice" and then 50 for qualification. After that they issue a fresh 50ish for carrying until the next annual qualification.
 
I can't speak for MSP or what's done in the MA Academy, but I can speak for annual qualification (MA muni departments) and that is 50 rds/year. Many PDs have them fire their 50 carry rounds first as a "practice" and then 50 for qualification. After that they issue a fresh 50ish for carrying until the next annual qualification.

And many departments have monthly inspections and quarterly qualifications. Many departments issue practice ammo to those who want it as well. There Are some very progressive Chiefs around.[wink]
 
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