Bad gun laws make better guns and shooters; Updated

[Reptile]

I hate the AWB - Assault Weapons Ban - but I have made an interesting observation that is counter intuitive to the intensions of the creators of those bad laws.

<Edit: Would have come out eventually> 1. The "pocket rocket" subcompact Glocks came about due to the AWB. The limit for capacity back during the federal ban was 10 rounds. Glock wanted to make a powerful and compact firearm that would be legal. Glock 17's are great and hold 17 rounds, but could not make legal 17 rounds magazines anymore. I have read (but unable to cite) that the G26 and G27 came about just because of the AWB. Perhaps that subcompacts would not have come about when they did if not for the AWB.

<Edit: Debunked> 2. One criteria for the AWB is the forbidden flash hider. The ATF does allow muzzle brakes, however. Modern muzzle brakes make rifles more accurate because they control recoil and muzzle rise. This allows for faster target reacquisition after firing a shot because there is little recoil. I am sure that the anti-gun legislators would much rather have gunners with flash hiders than more accurate rifles- if they knew that muzzle brakes would come about.

<Edit: Debunked>3. The AWB forbids magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds. Well, an unintended consequence was that all gunners who train only train with 10 rounds magazines. So now we all can run our guns dry and do reloads faster than if we did not train for that. Think of how lazy people would be if our guns held 17 rounds during training. Who would want to learn to do reloads rapidly unless you must?

If anybody has other positive, yet unintended consequences, of the AWB or other crappy laws- please chime in. It would be a good project for a good writer to research and develop on this topic.

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Edit:
Thank you all for contributing to this thread. I have learned a lot from your posts.

 

[Jose]

Think of how lazy people would be if our guns held 17 rounds during training. Who would want to learn to do reloads rapidly unless you must?

WTF

Are you serious? Yeah, the rest of us where the AWB doesn't exist just went to sleep.

 

[Jamie]

WTF

Are you serious? Yeah, the rest of us where the AWB doesn't exist just went to sleep.

My thoughts exactly, only about the entire post.

 

[Ink]

.

 

[CRSIII]

Reptilian one, read your post and look twice.

Shall not be infringed.

Now where's my rpg?

 

[Supermoto]

I have made an interesting observation that is counter intuitive

This is all I got out of it

 

[Deleted member 12999]

I'm not really with you on the specific points you mentioned, but I get your over-arching point. People are going to always find ways to overcome prohibitions regarding stuff like this. Capoeira would be an example of this, although there is debate on the specifics of the ban on martial arts, and how much it had to do with the development of the art; or the development of Okinawan farming weapons in the 1600's under Japanese oppression.

 

[Patriot0717]

[]

I hate the AWB - Assault Weapons Ban - but I have made an interesting observation that is counter intuitive to the intensions of the creators of those bad laws.

1. reasonable assumption, probably could find data to correspond

2. Possibly

3. I can't go there, lazy people are lazy poeple, almost impossible to prove

EDIT/RETRACT

 

[gixxer_kid]

Sorry but I would have to disagree with you on all but number 2 and even then I barely agree. I highly doubt glock created a subcompact line of firearms to suit smaller mags. Why wouldnt they just continue full size and compact size with a narrow body and single stack mags? You could give me 30 round mags (my AR platform) and I would administer just as many reloads during training. Shoot faster and more or just dont load to capacity during training. I agree with Carl, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. We shouldn't have to sit here and come up with stupid reasons that bogus laws dont make sense, instead we should be fighting to get these stupid laws taken out of the books and the idiots that made them fired.

 

[fencer]

If anybody has other positive, yet unintended consequences, of the AWB or other crappy laws- please chime in. It would be a good project for a good writer to research and develop on this topic.

Yeah, one unintended consequence is that jerks like me are forced to pay triple what I should for 20 year old magazines. I suppose it could also be said that it has caused the stockpiling of said preban magazines.

 

[Boris]

laws rarely have anything to do with logic or common sense ... unless they are about collecting taxes. AWB did piss more people into supporting 2A groups and be more involved.

 

[vellnueve]

I hate the AWB - Assault Weapons Ban - but I have made an interesting observation that is counter intuitive to the intensions of the creators of those bad laws.

1. The "pocket rocket" subcompact Glocks came about due to the AWB. The limit for capacity back during the federal ban was 10 rounds. Glock wanted to make a powerful and compact firearm that would be legal. Glock 17's are great and hold 17 rounds, but could not make legal 17 rounds magazines anymore. I have read (but unable to cite) that the G26 and G27 came about just because of the AWB. Perhaps that subcompacts would not have come about when they did if not for the AWB.

2. One criteria for the AWB is the forbidden flash hider. The ATF does allow muzzle brakes, however. Modern muzzle brakes make rifles more accurate because they control recoil and muzzle rise. This allows for faster target reacquisition after firing a shot because there is little recoil. I am sure that the anti-gun legislators would much rather have gunners with flash hiders than more accurate rifles- if they knew that muzzle brakes would come about.

3. The AWB forbids magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds. Well, an unintended consequence was that all gunners who train only train with 10 rounds magazines. So now we all can run our guns dry and do reloads faster than if we did not train for that. Think of how lazy people would be if our guns held 17 rounds during training. Who would want to learn to do reloads rapidly unless you must?

If anybody has other positive, yet unintended consequences, of the AWB or other crappy laws- please chime in. It would be a good project for a good writer to research and develop on this topic.

1. These were planned well prior to the AWB.

2. Muzzle brakes have been around as long as flash hiders have been.

3. Have you seen a USPSA Open shooter reload their 30 round mags?

 

[atilla]

Now where's my rpg?

next time you nail a scratch ticket i'll have one i'm looking to get rid of.

 

[ptanks56]

? WHAT ? God-dang, can we make it so our strong arm has to tied to our weak foot before we shoot?
That would really inprove our hit percentage when untied, right?
IBTL

 

[Reptile]

Regarding the creation of subcompact Glocks, I found this on wikipedia...

"With the ten-round limit on magazine capacity in effect, and some form of concealed carry of firearms legal in over 38 states, manufacturers had an added incentive to design smaller frames at or below the ten-round capacity, thus replacing the previously popular 9mm and .45 ACP higher capacity pistols. Since they could no longer manufacture the popular 15- and 17-round magazines to consumers, continuing to market the large frames designed for such made less sense. Glock introduced their 10-round capacity 9mm semi-automatic pistol, the Glock 26, in August 1994, in apparent anticipation of the legislation. In 1995, the Kahr Arms company was founded; they debuted their ultra-compact 9mm pistol, the K9. In the years that followed, all manufacturers of semiautomatic pistols followed suit, developing a large array of concealable ten-round pistols in various calibers, including 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

 

[Lunokhod]

Reptilian one, read your post and look twice.

Shall not be infringed.

Now where's my rpg?

they are just waiting for your $200 a year tax for destructive devices

 

[dhuze]

The only thing I can think of to come out of the made up term of "assault weapons" is the made up term "assault clips".

 

[Eye5600]

Are you serious? Yeah, the rest of us where the AWB doesn't exist just went to sleep.

Well, wake up.

I read somewhere that the current popularity of the 1911 is due in large part to the magazine capacity restrictions of the Federal AWB.

However, contrary to the OP's suggestion, I think the restrictions on pistol grips, suppressors, and maybe even flash hiders are restrictions on improvements that are actually safety features.

 

[Pete85]

The AWB/Hi Cap ban didn't make anything better, it just made it happen quicker. It made the things you describe a necessity, and as we all know: Necessity accellerates innovation. People looked harder for ways to get around the prohibition and this was the result. It wasn't something that didn't happen otherwise, it's just something that happened faster because of the AWB. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Jose]

Well, wake up.

I read somewhere that the current popularity of the 1911 is due in large part to the magazine capacity restrictions of the Federal AWB.

However, contrary to the OP's suggestion, I think the restrictions on pistol grips, suppressors, and maybe even flash hiders are restrictions on improvements that are actually safety features.

The suggestion that shooters would have not become as proficient at reloading if the AWB (with its associated magazine capacity limits) had not occured is laughable.

 

[Fsorrent]

And...rape makes stronger women?????

 

[drgrant]

I hate the AWB - Assault Weapons Ban - but I have made an interesting observation that is counter intuitive to the intensions of the creators of those bad laws.

1. The "pocket rocket" subcompact Glocks came about due to the AWB. The limit for capacity back during the federal ban was 10 rounds. Glock wanted to make a powerful and compact firearm that would be legal. Glock 17's are great and hold 17 rounds, but could not make legal 17 rounds magazines anymore. I have read (but unable to cite) that the G26 and G27 came about just because of the AWB. Perhaps that subcompacts would not have come about when they did if not for the AWB.

I think the AWB motivated these guns to exist, but bear in mind there were other factors at play, considering the growing acceptance of Glock pistols. Same thing with Kahr Arms. Low capacity handguns sell now because they are attractive for concealment, not because of any ban.

2. One criteria for the AWB is the forbidden flash hider. The ATF does allow muzzle brakes, however. Modern muzzle brakes make rifles more accurate because they control recoil and muzzle rise. This allows for faster target reacquisition after firing a shot because there is little recoil. I am sure that the anti-gun legislators would much rather have gunners with flash hiders than more accurate rifles- if they knew that muzzle brakes would come about.

Before the ban, muzzle brakes existed, so this doesn't hold much water. All the ban did was take a choice away.... you get a brake, or nothing.

3. The AWB forbids magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds. Well, an unintended consequence was that all gunners who train only train with 10 rounds magazines. So now we all can run our guns dry and do reloads faster than if we did not train for that. Think of how lazy people would be if our guns held 17 rounds during training. Who would want to learn to do reloads rapidly unless you must?

Seriously? There's no incentive to "reloading slower" because you have a larger magazine. There are a lot of shooting sports/classes that force reloads too (eg, by imposing a 10 round limit for that class/event) or even 6 rounds for things like pin shooting. Reloading has always been emphasized in training, regardless of capacity.

If anybody has other positive, yet unintended consequences, of the AWB or other crappy laws- please chime in. It would be a good project for a good writer to research and develop on this topic.

There aren't any positives, really, except that it's possible the ban might have woken up more gun owners that weren't paying attention, especially when it sunset.

-Mike

 

[wolf223]

 

[ScottS]

Well, wake up.

I read somewhere that the current popularity of the 1911 is due in large part to the magazine capacity restrictions of the Federal AWB.

However, contrary to the OP's suggestion, I think the restrictions on pistol grips, suppressors, and maybe even flash hiders are restrictions on improvements that are actually safety features.

Oh, you read it somewhere. Must be true, then. Of course, the 1911 continues to be popular in 2011, with new manufacturers releasing 1911's every year, and the AWB sunset 7 years ago out here in the real world. How does one square that with what one can "read somewhere?"

 

[Reptile]

Thank you all for contributing to this thread. I have learned a lot from your posts. I now realize I had some poor misconceptions.

 

[swampy]

I'll add one dangerous law that was enacted here in Crapachusetts. The heavy trigger pull to make guns safer. If only the idiot that inflicted us to that could see how bad triggers make for bad shots. I often wonder how many people are dead because heavy trigger pulls put bullets where they shouldn't have gone. That is the perfect example why laws shouldn't be written by the uninformed.

 

[TomH]

Another consequence of the AWB is that people get a sort of "stockholm" syndrome with it, and start to come up with reasoning about how it has positives.