B-ramming, Grin and Take It, or....

TLB

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After spending way too much time reading posts on this site (man it is easy to get sidetracked on some of the threads here), I have some questions, but first some background.

Based on anecdotal evidence (on this site) my CLEO likes to issue Class B for first timers, will upgrade upon renewal. I am a noob, but do have friends/family with LTC-A ALP licenses in other towns. I am middle aged, college-educated, absolutely clean record, and will be starting part-time business (LLC) with friends/partners soon (not a jewelry or cash business that indicates blatant need for LTC-A). I have lived in my town for more than a few years, and have been a MA resident for life (poor me).

I obviously desire an LTC-A ALP for the numerous reasons stated over and over again on this site. I am not sure how often I would actually carry…but certainly want that option.

Should I set-up a time and just go chat with my licensing office to confirm the B-ramming evidence I have found here and discuss possible rationales that might allow Class A issuance from the PD? Also, this would be an opportunity to discuss being upgraded in a shorter timeframe than 6 years (renewal).

Or is less more and should I just apply for an LTC-A after I have my training/paperwork in order and see what happens. Others have reported being told that a B will be issued if approved during the application process.

Is there any value to having an attorney assist me, since I have a perfectly clean record and I am confident that I will be suitable (just likely B-rammed due to department policy). i.e. Is there any real hope for preventing B-ramming with the assistance of an attorney? I realize this is likely town/attorney specific and I would have to discuss my town with different attorneys to see what their experiences have been. It just doesn’t seem to pass a cost benefit analysis if I only have a 5% chance of avoiding B-ramming by paying an attorney fee.

Maybe, I just need to grin and take it (B-ramming)?

Sorry for long post and I am sure there will be more questions. Please correct any incorrect assumptions I am making – the gun laws and licensing process in this state are obviously very confusing.

TIA,
TLB

PS, I am an NRA member, and plan on going green and joining GOAL in the near future
 
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I got B-rammed while living in Salem MA. The officer in charge of taking license apps filled out the application on a computer and when I told him I wanted to apply for an LTC-A he said we don't give those out and checked off "B" as the license I was applying for.

What I should have done is argued to apply for an A even though they'd give me a B so I could appeal it. Since I didn't fight it I had no recourse.

DO NOT let them force you to apply for a B. Apply for an A, they'll give you a B and you can then appeal.
 
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I got B-rammed while living in Salem MA. The officer in charge of taking license apps filled out the application on a computer and when I told him I wanted to apply for an LTC-A he said we don't give those out and checked off "B" as the license I was applying for.

What I should have done is argued to apply for an A even though they'd give me a B so I could appeal it. Since I didn't fight it I had no recourse.

DO NOT let them force you to apply for a B. Apply for an A, they'll give you a B and you can then appeal.

I may be wrong here, but I thought that a B-ramming was not considered a "denial" and thus an appeal through the system was not possible.....
 

drgrant

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Lawyer is worth a call.

Some of these towns can be dog and ponied into giving you at least a restricted A, which, while still sucking, is way better than a B is.

-Mike
 

TLB

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Lawyer is worth a call.

Some of these towns can be dog and ponied into giving you at least a restricted A, which, while still sucking, is way better than a B is.

-Mike

That is what I was wondering about. What form does this dog and pony show take?

Help with application/letter on letterhead to notify PD that counsel is involved?
Direct contact by counsel during process (in phone or in person)?
Other?

I have searched, but not found much about this logistically, and certainly I have no clue of likelihood for success. Obviously these are questions for the potential attorney, but I would be interested in hearing 3rd party accounts of using an attorney in this scenario as a reality check before talking to attorneys.
 

M1911

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I would definitely contact one of the firearms attorneys BEFORE any contact with the PD. First, you want to increase your chances as much as possible from the get go. Your goal is to get an LTC-A, not to get in a fight. Second, you want to make sure that if you do get in a legal fight, that you didn't do or say something that jeopardizes your legal position in the fight.
 
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I stand corrected. My bad, from a previous convo on here I thought it was.

Anyway, do what I did: move to NH.

Weebles, I wasn't saying you were wrong, I was sharing what I thought based on what I have heard people saying about this issue before. I am unsure myself. Someone care to settle this one for us?
 

Len-2A Training

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More than likely Brockton.

If they issue a LTC, no matter what flavor or restrictions, there is no recourse thru the courts for "appeal" and the judges view it as a LTC is a LTC . . . we know better, but they don't and they don't care to be educated about it.

You don't play poker with all your cards face up, and for the same reason, lawyers don't lay out their strategies, etc. on the Internet (which is public) for their adversaries to read and figure a way around them.

Planning on starting a business could be the "key" to getting the LTC-A, but you'll need to sit down with an attorney to hand-craft a letter of reasons why you should get that LTC-A in order to have a chance of success.

Good luck.
 
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More than likely Brockton.

If they issue a LTC, no matter what flavor or restrictions, there is no recourse thru the courts for "appeal" and the judges view it as a LTC is a LTC . . . we know better, but they don't and they don't care to be educated about it.

You don't play poker with all your cards face up, and for the same reason, lawyers don't lay out their strategies, etc. on the Internet (which is public) for their adversaries to read and figure a way around them.

Planning on starting a business could be the "key" to getting the LTC-A, but you'll need to sit down with an attorney to hand-craft a letter of reasons why you should get that LTC-A in order to have a chance of success.

Good luck.

Brockton issues LTC-A though, Plenty of members here have gotten them on first application here.
 

TLB

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You don't play poker with all your cards face up, and for the same reason, lawyers don't lay out their strategies, etc. on the Internet (which is public) for their adversaries to read and figure a way around them.

Planning on starting a business could be the "key" to getting the LTC-A, but you'll need to sit down with an attorney to hand-craft a letter of reasons why you should get that LTC-A in order to have a chance of success.

Good luck.

I certainly do not expect attorneys to directly divulge their secrets in this post. I was more thinking of someone saying. "My town likes to B-ram people. I used an attorney and they did "X" for me. As a result, I got my LTC-A..."

"X" doesn't have to be real specific. i.e. sent a letter to my CLEO on esquire letterhead, helped me with language on my application, suggested I take ABC course to improve my application in the eyes of the CLEO, etc.

I do appreciate the informative language that Scrivener has made public on this forum. It is just hard to tell if using all of the language is going into the process "too heavy". i.e. could backfire if the PD thinks "who the hell does this guy think he is?" quoting these references why he should get an ALP. I guess that comes back to counsel with local experience...

I just like to be an informed shopper and want to avoid getting disappointed in the end by paying for a lawyer to be unsuccessful in helping me.

Of course all of this just points to how asinine our system is when those of us in towns like mine have to think about all this stuff, while others just go sit in their PD, have the officer punch in "ALP", and wait for the mail to come...crazy. Meanwhile, you feel persecuted or like you are doing something bad, and hide your location on NES to avoid further persecution. It is almost funny....almost.
 
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M1911

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Going into this, remember that you are not in the position of power. You could hire an attorney who has a 100% successful track record in these matters, only to get b-rammed by the chief and have his decision upheld by a judge. Hiring an attorney for this sort of thing is not a money-back guarantee. But you've got a better chance of success if you hire one beforehand. How much better a chance? There's no way of knowing.
 

TLB

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Going into this, remember that you are not in the position of power. You could hire an attorney who has a 100% successful track record in these matters, only to get b-rammed by the chief and have his decision upheld by a judge. Hiring an attorney for this sort of thing is not a money-back guarantee. But you've got a better chance of success if you hire one beforehand. How much better a chance? There's no way of knowing.

I realize that. I guess I suspect that there is not enough of a chance for success to make it worthwhile. Based on a lack of anecdotal success stories from my searching of this site, my gut tells me that the increase in the chances with an attorney over not having an attorney would be very small in my situation (since I do not have a suitability question in my past that an attorney could be very helpful in framing for me).

I could be missing the success stories....
 

drgrant

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That is what I was wondering about. What form does this dog and pony show take?

This is why the lawyer is key, they probably already have done this for someone before in that town, and already know how to grease the skids, or if it's even possible. A half hour conversation with an MA gun lawyer will let you know whether or not you will need a moving truck or not.

It's usually things like

-Well prepared application
-Additional firearms training courses beyond the basic
-Business ownership + documentation
-Exploiting political connections

Well-crafted letter indicating:
-Statement of "need" for carrying a firearm
-Reasons you need an LTC-A in order to be engaged in firearms competition
etc.

And yes, in some towns if they are on notice that a lawyer is involved, all of a sudden
their tune will change, or at least change a little bit. Obviously most of them don't care, but a few probably do. There are many towns in MA that will fold if you apply enough pressure in the right places. A lot of the B-rammer towns can be "tenderized" into at least giving you a restricted A.

-Mike
 
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While I agree with the sentiment of move to NH, it sounds like the OP is going to have or already has business interests that prevent him from leaving MA. Therefore the best course of action would be to contact one of the attorneys on NES. I have not dealt with them (Thankfully, cause if I had it would be for having to defend myself), but I hear they are top notch and well worth your time and money.

Attorney Cohen:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/member.php/83-jcohen

And Attorney Darius Arbabi
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/member.php/278-Cross-X
 
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I realize that. I guess I suspect that there is not enough of a chance for success to make it worthwhile. Based on a lack of anecdotal success stories from my searching of this site, my gut tells me that the increase in the chances with an attorney over not having an attorney would be very small in my situation (since I do not have a suitability question in my past that an attorney could be very helpful in framing for me).

I could be missing the success stories....

Have you considered simply asking them if they can help you? PM or call them and see if they've had success in your town.
 

M1911

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I realize that. I guess I suspect that there is not enough of a chance for success to make it worthwhile. Based on a lack of anecdotal success stories from my searching of this site, my gut tells me that the increase in the chances with an attorney over not having an attorney would be very small in my situation (since I do not have a suitability question in my past that an attorney could be very helpful in framing for me).
Call them up and ask. Explain to them the situation and ask them what they think. Have they had clients in this or similar towns, how much did it cost, and what was the result? All it will cost is a phone call.
 

TLB

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Thanks for all of the good advice guys. I will definitely talk to some attorneys. I will see what they think before I have any discussions with the PD. Also, I think there are some angles I can use for justification regarding the business.

Unfortunately moving from MA is not going to happen soon. I dream about moving to NH, but with my income coming from MA, the NH property taxes on top of MA income tax would be burdensome.
 

amb

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While I can't really go into specifics here, I have firsthand knowledge of a couple of instances of the involvement of lawyers greatly sweetening the LTC-issuing process. And yeah, it's not (usually) about going head-to-head in court, it's about gentle persuasion and quietly-applied pressure. (Just having a lawyer involved in the first place says a lot to the issuing authority about how seriously you're taking things.)
 

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Unfortunately moving from MA is not going to happen soon. I dream about moving to NH, but with my income coming from MA, the NH property taxes on top of MA income tax would be burdensome.

My $0.02..

Don't even think about a Tax burden if you are thinking about moving to NH.
Don't do anything personal for tax purposes. If NH is right for you because it is right, do it. Just the savings on sales tax may offset the Ma income tax. Also, if you look off the path in NH (West or north) you will find that the tax per $1,000 is about the same as many MA communities.
I let myself believe that it would be too expensive, I bought in MA. Shortly thereafter, I was laid off, and now I work out of my home (could be my home in NH if i did it right.) Now I have only one regret in life, NOT moving to NH when I had the opportunity. And after doing the math, even if I paid MA income tax, I would be paying the same today, if I lived 10 Miles north.

I plan to make the move someday, but now kids are in schools and other roots are growing.

So learn from my mistake. Go to NH.
 
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Don't even think about a Tax burden if you are thinking about moving to NH.
Don't do anything personal for tax purposes.

I disagree strongly. Taking the time to run these sort of numbers is pretty much why I can afford to buy guns and ammo, etc, as tax burden is substantial (not really due to high income, which would be a shame.[grin] ) I agree that you should actually look and figure out what the real numbers are instead of going by gut feelings, which might be what you're saying.

Take a day, do some research, pop open excel, and make an educated choice. It sounds like he may have done this. But I think we're digressing the thread.
 
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