Attempted robbery of choking of a woman, and possible loss of LTC

[weekendracer]

I'll reiterate, situation dictates. On a crowded side-walk, sure, use the dudes skull as a back-stop. But if you're on some running trail in a park or what not, I'm sure theres a pretty decent direction to take a shot that's not likely to hit anyone.

I get that you don't get it. But rules are different for LEO's when it comes to being left of bang (or right at bang I guess). It's like shooting at tires, the 'they' decided it's not worth it, so the driver (or other threat in the vehicle) is the target.

 

[AHM]

The problem with warning shots is where does that shot go? I'm responsible for every piece of lead that leaves my gun. If I have to use deadly force, I may not go to jail over the shot that misses, but I'll have to live with it.

Sure -- but that can be largely controlled for.

In a high stress situation? In any kind of populated area? I'd rather not. My time in the AZ desert, sure, nothing around for miles.

Wasn't this on a golf course?

It's kind of a no-brainer to make it a turf pop -
not a third-world wedding reception sky-shot.

But imagine if you hit the sprinkler pipe...

 

[crazymjb]

I get that you don't get it. But rules are different for LEO's when it comes to being left of bang (or right at bang I guess). It's like shooting at tires, the 'they' decided it's not worth it, so the driver (or other threat in the vehicle) is the target.

No I do get it. Every single situation is unique. There are some instances where warning shots are ill-advised either cause it'll get you killed or because it is reckless. There are plenty of others where that may not be the case. Nothing is black and white.

 

[weekendracer]

Wasn't this on a golf course?

It's kind of a no-brainer to make it a turf pop -
not a third-world wedding reception sky-shot.

But imagine if you hit the sprinkler pipe...

I'm pretty sure at some point in the past a 'warning shot' turned into a dead person. The 'they' in full on panty printing made a decision. It was before my time, but I've heard stories early in my career that made sense on why they were banned.

No I do get it. Every single situation is unique. There are some instances where warning shots are ill-advised either cause it'll get you killed or because it is reckless. There are plenty of others where that may not be the case. Nothing is black and white.

Fine, you write the policy that covers the warning shot shooter and dictate when and where it can be used with no liability to both the shooter and your agency. Define the distances from property and people where such a decision can be made. Then tell me how in the name of Chathulu that LEO can be aware of all the random bits of information needed to make that decision.

 

[crazymjb]

I'm not talking LEOs here -- but sure, let's apply it to them. As stated, there's a spectrum dude and there are absolutely situations where it might be appropriate. Or are you going to say theres no such thing as a sparsely populated area, or a solid back stop beside or near someone who needs a f***ing clue that they're gonna get popped.

 

[AHM]

I'm pretty sure at some point in the past a 'warning shot' turned into a dead person. The 'they' in full on panty printing made a decision. It was before my time, but I've heard stories early in my career that made sense on why they were banned.

Oh, not arguing in their favor.

In theory there could be some training class that covers gross motor skill reload,
breaks for lunch,
and then practices Safe Warning Shots.

But in reality I'm sure we're decades past the point where
if you think it's time for a warning shot,
it's a proof using geometric logic that you can't handle a warning shot.

 

[mike1960]

Channel 4 of all places did a fair report. The woman being attacked was an employee of the Chef who runs the restaurant at the club. He heard her screaming saw her being strangled by the attacker, jumped into a golf cart, yelled at the guy then put one in the dirt. They even aired an interview with a witness who praised the Chef for his quick action. The Chef stated “This is my business, she is my employee and my responsibility. That’s it.”

Good job sir.

 

[weekendracer]

Oh, not arguing in their favor.

In theory there could be some training class that covers gross motor skill reload,
breaks for lunch,
and then practices Safe Warning Shots.

But in reality I'm sure we're decades past the point where
if you think it's time for a warning shot,
it's a proof using geometric logic that you can't handle a warning shot.

That's all I'm saying, to change policy you have to have a set set of circumstances where that action is 'justified'. Then you have to put it into writing so when your officer is on trial for the death of an unassociated person there is written justification for the shot. I wish it easier than that, but it just isn't. I've talked to policy writers before. Normally it's a tourette's laden one sided conversation on my part. The good one's were over beers, where at least I eventually forgot what I was bitching about.

 

[Toast]

""Voluntarily voluntarily turned over his firearm and License to Carry a Firearm". I can see being made to turn over the gun if you've fired a shot. Are you required to give them your LTC if they demand it?

 

[drgrant]

Not a cop, not a hero... but some of you are lousy neighbors. If I'm with my family their safety is 100% the priority, but seriously nice people here caring more about your potential legal bills than someones wife, mother, daughter, etc getting choked the f*** out when you can do something about it. Cops are the "sheepdogs," good samaritans are good samaritans.

Lol, good luck with that level of simplicity.

 

[Palladin]

I was shooting at a Gopher!!

 

[paul73]

There are some instances where warning shots are ill-advised either cause it'll get you killed or because it is reckless. There are plenty of others where that may not be the case.

is this is something you came up with on your own or had you actually got that from any kind of an official training? if latter - what kind of, just curious.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Remember a few years back when the guy killed a waitress at a restaurant in the Silver City Galleria, the perp was shot by an off duty deputy sheriff and he still got shit I think.

Hmmm. I actually don't watch the news, so I forget. He might have at first. Very early on. But clearly it was a "he needs to be put down" type of situation. He killed one guy with a freaking steak knife IN the restaurant! Forget the other folks he killed on his rampage to Bertucci's.

 

[Lank]

I'm not out trying to play cop - but I'm not just going to stand there while someone gets choked out. What the f*** is the point of having an LTC/gun if you aren't going to use it when it is clearly justified?

It's Mass. Remember the guy who shot a man stabbing his therapist to death at Mass General? I think it took a six month investigation to clear him....and I think he was a special security officer (not sure what the exact description is) for Boston

 

[greencobra]

i've posted here before in discussions we've had on this, that i am only prepared to help me and mine. if anyone wants to walk around unprotected so others need to get involved to bail them out of a situation, well, that's their problem. all our rambos skewered me for that but i still haven't changed my opinion. if i'm going to jail...or die...while protecting someone, it's going to be my family, not a stranger.

 

[kalash]

You guys would seriously stand by and do absolutely nothing? You'd just watch someone get killed?

 

[crazymjb]

You guys would seriously stand by and do absolutely nothing? You'd just watch someone get killed?

Being a gun guy doesn't make you selfless or an upstanding member of the community.

So it took 6 months to "clear" the MGH guy... but people are still alive because of him, and he was cleared. Also, I'd bet that it took about 2 seconds to clear him, and about 6 months for the paperwork to move from desk to desk. Government is government everywhere, after all.

 

[Asaltweapon]

Being a gun guy doesn't make you selfless or an upstanding member of the community.

So it took 6 months to "clear" the MGH guy... but people are still alive because of him, and he was cleared. Also, I'd bet that it took about 2 seconds to clear him, and about 6 months for the paperwork to move from desk to desk. Government is government everywhere, after all.

And his legal team worked for free too. LOL. He was still hung out to dry and in Mass I highly doubt it took 2 seconds not forgetting he was paid to be a guard in some aspect and was not a private citizen.

Maybe in Fantasy Land it might work out OK but not around this state.

 

[paul73]

You guys would seriously stand by and do absolutely nothing? You'd just watch someone get killed?

i would not watch. what for, i`ve seen it plenty before. and have inserted myself into the middle of the mess more than once. almost always - with huge regrets afterwards. just saying.

 

[Kevin_NH]

You guys would seriously stand by and do absolutely nothing? You'd just watch someone get killed?

In my home state? No, I wouldn't stand by and do absolutely nothing.

In "we really try and discourage people from self-help" Mass? I'd power up the burner phone and dial 911.

 

[teamRR]

I must have missed some training everyone else got concerning what happens when you fire into the dirt. Seems like if you are standing in a golf course that would be pretty straightforward to find a safe place to discharge a warning shot into the ground. Sure there could be a rock just under the surface maybe but a pistol round isn't carrying much energy for very long after that, many of us routinely use backstops that are just littered with rocks.

I'm not saying MA authorities won't make a big deal of it, but the warning shot part likely wasn't a safety issue.

 

[paul73]

I must have missed some training everyone else got concerning what happens when you fire into the dirt.

a most usual thing that happens after you fire into the dirt is the 'justified' returned fire, and then - you die.

 

[drgrant]

Being a gun guy doesn't make you selfless or an upstanding member of the community.

Most of the people "in our communities" vote for people who want to kill us and steal our shit. So process that for a few minutes when you use the term "community" especially ina
commie shithole like MA.

So it took 6 months to "clear" the MGH guy... but people are still alive because of him, and he was cleared. Also, I'd bet that it took about 2 seconds to clear him, and about 6 months for the paperwork to move from desk to desk. Government is government everywhere, after all.

Tucker Carlson Voice: "No, it's not. "

In a non commie state he would have been let off the hook in a week. There's no 6 months of f***ing paperwork, what crack are you smoking? It's literally the DA issuing a press release that they're not going to charge someone with a crime. It's a 2 minute verbal exchange with his admin assistant or secretary to type it up and release it to the media or whoever. Don't give these shit eating, tyrant motherf***ers an inch that they don't deserve. And even if it was a formality, then the DA would have made an announcement. They didn't. They wanted to keep him on ice and f*** up his life as much as possible. Then at the end they were pissed off when they discovered they couldn't charge him with anything because of the PR blowback/optics.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

The witness voluntarily turned over his firearm and License to Carry a Firearm on scene as this investigation remains active and ongoing.

 

[1903Collector]

Hmmm. I actually don't watch the news, so I forget. He might have at first. Very early on. But clearly it was a "he needs to be put down" type of situation. He killed one guy with a freaking steak knife IN the restaurant! Forget the other folks he killed on his rampage to Bertucci's.

Your right, it was the guy who was trying to help the waitress, couldn't remember. I think he stabbed some other woman in her house first then went to Macy's and then Bertucci's

 

[drgrant]

I must have missed some training everyone else got concerning what happens when you fire into the dirt. Seems like if you are standing in a golf course that would be pretty straightforward to find a safe place to discharge a warning shot into the ground. Sure there could be a rock just under the surface maybe but a pistol round isn't carrying much energy for very long after that, many of us routinely use backstops that are just littered with rocks.

I'm not saying MA authorities won't make a big deal of it, but the warning shot part likely wasn't a safety issue.

LOL go look at a bunch of legal shit WRT "warning shots". An hour worth of research will make you conclude that an intentional warning shot is a VERY bad idea. If someone decides to have a warning shot, it sure as hell should not be "on the record" as such, if you catch my drift.

You do enough research you will never, ever want to use a "warning shot" ever involving an incident with humans in it.

Best Example- this lady in florida had an abusive husband or something, guy was raging, she had gone out to her car and gotten a gun or something, and then at some point during her altercation with her husband she fired a shot in the air or ceiling or something. Got thrown in jail over it for some stupid amount of time It would have been a much easier sell for her legally if she just shot him.

This is why you don't use "warning shots" kids....

Marissa Alexander case - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, they changed the law, etc. But "Warning Shots" in criminal court systems are as toxic as road rage cases are. It creates an atmosphere of f***ery that you don't want clouding your
defense in court. The moment a judge or jury hears "warning shot" the first thing they're thinking is - "Well, it obviously wasn't grevious, imminent, or serious enough of a threat to justify shooting the guy, so entire thing is bunk" thats the jump to conclusions thing EVERYONES brain goes to. "If person XYZ was a threat that justified deadly force, why didnt warning shot broad just shoot person XYZ?"

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Why did he even get involved in this state? He is not a cop or other LEO so stay the hell out of it and call 911 if you want. Firing a round into anyplace just says arrest me and take my shit.
Had he just called 911 and filmed it with his phone like every other person does he’d have no issues with anyone today.

in this state, yes. DO NOT get involved. Call 911 and walk away.

 

[alx]

It is _very_ hard for a normal good person (what is 3/4 of all folks in my view) to stand by when somebody who appears innocent is getting hurt. Most people are a at least a bit emphatic and will try to help - especially if they are in position to do so. I believe in a similar situation I would have responded in a similar fashion. There are wolves and sheep as we all know. A wolf would help/ take initiative and a sheep will record on his/hers phone in hopes for "likes" when they post the video online.

MY 2 cents

 

[drgrant]

in this state, yes. DO NOT get involved. Call 911 and walk away.

I think it depends on circumstances and ones own values system etc.

What I do is likely different from most here and so on and so forth.

I can see a lot of cases where I am definitely just walking away. And many others where I might be compelled to do something.

Pretending to assume that everyone should do X or Y is just arrogant.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

I just had to