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"ATF Unhinged: Prosecutions Made Up Out of Whole Cloth – You Might Be Next…"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DispositionMatrix, Oct 29, 2018.

  1. DispositionMatrix

    DispositionMatrix NES Member

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    If the article is to be believed, the client got jammed up on an NFA charge over a pistol with a wrist brace, and the government tried to mislead the jury.
    ATF Unhinged: Prosecutions Made Up Out of Whole Cloth – You Might Be Next…
     
  2. amm5061

    amm5061 NES Member

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    What the actual f***?
     
  3. enbloc

    enbloc NES Life Member NES Member

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    Send it up the chain to the U.S. Supreme Court. Time We got "accessories" quashed as an issue.
    Accessories don't harm anyone...
     
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  4. Matt-CZ

    Matt-CZ

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    You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride. Being right can be awfully expensive. :(
     
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  5. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    I'm more curious about the incident that lead up to his indictment.... but not a lot present there.
     
  6. MuzzleDiscipline

    MuzzleDiscipline NES Life Member NES Member

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    No surprises here. The Atf has been at this tomfoolery for as long as I can remember.
     
  7. Chevy 2 65

    Chevy 2 65 NES Member

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    Sealed to protect the guilty.
     
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  8. BUMPA01603

    BUMPA01603 NES Member

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    I can see them "sealing" documents to bury aspects of an investigation that makes them look stooopid! We all need a nice place to lay our cheeks down....
     
  9. allen-1

    allen-1 NES Member

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  10. Bonesinium

    Bonesinium

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    I’ll explain.

    Someone who works in government got butthurt.
     
  11. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA NES Member

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    I'm confused. Did he have a VFG or a Magpul approved AVFG or another manf's AVFG with no ATF determination letter???
     
  12. Bonesinium

    Bonesinium

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    Correction.
     
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  13. glide

    glide

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    If he had a VFG then it is an NFA violation. Not sure how the brace factors in.

    This article is clear as mud.
     
  14. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry

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    So for people who might own pistols, and might own AFGs and Maxim braces, don't install them? Sheesh. What was the point of those ATF determination letters?
     
  15. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    Yes, I get that, that's the usual ATF MO, but I'm also curious to see what the accused did to get dragged into this.

    The indictment actually is unsealed on pacer but I don't remember WTF my account info is....

    -Mike
     
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  16. Bonesinium

    Bonesinium

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    He’s the person who made the government person butthurt.

    If you are wonder exactly how, it was probably by saying something both innocuous and true.
     
  17. Dadstoys

    Dadstoys NES Member

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    Nothing new for these monkeys by a long shot.
    I have a friend in Military law enforcement who went to a multi agency training seminar and these a-holes would brag and joke about setting people up and framing people.
    Somehow they though all agencies worked this way and they would be impressing everyone.
    Mostly they were just disgusted.
    They are like the cousin the rest of the family doesn't talk about or invite to family get togethers.
    The peak of their unbridled ass hattery was during wild Bill's presidency.
     
  18. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    The cancer is still there, look at what they did during fast and furious... punishing whistleblowers etc...
     
  19. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry

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    Again, I ask... should people who own these arm braces and angled grips ensure that they never get attached to a pistol?
     
  20. gws1063

    gws1063 NES Member

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    Does it even matter if things never get attached? I thought that was what "constructive possession" was all about.

    -Gary
     
  21. Squire

    Squire

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    This is all trench warfare. It's the slippery slope. The lines are drawn, and neither side is backing down.

    The Supreme Court needs to nuke the whole battlefield and let it all be legal, except for assault or murder with a deadly weapon. That's the only f***ing gun law that should exist.
     
  22. djbradles

    djbradles NES Member

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    Hmmmm my plan for that AR pistol build is paused for an interim......or not
     
  23. Drix

    Drix

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    Mods, delete this.

    Dun wanna give Maura ideas. [laugh]
     
  24. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry

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    They tend not to charge that in cases where there's a sensible reason to have it. Let's say in a free state you own a pistol and a rifle, both ARs... and you have both 5.56 and .300 uppers for each. Unless there's evidence you've put one of the two pistol-length uppers on the rifle lower, chances are they're not going to charge you. Similarly simply owning a vertical foregrip and a pistol you're not (likely) going to see constructive possession charges if you own a rifle you could ostensibly install the grip on - unless they've got evidence you have or intend to install the VFG on the pistol. Then again, when shit like this happens...
     
  25. MetalgodZ

    MetalgodZ NES Member

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    It seems to suggest that he had a Magpul AVFG, however it doesn't matter as they're arguing that ATF determination letters are or should be inadmissible because "ATF FATD letters at trial creates a grave risk of confusing the issues and misleading the jury."
    Clear as it can be, given the sealed documents. It's pretty clear he's got either an AVFG or substantially similar thing with a cheek rest brace thingie (the technical term) and someone is attempting an end-run around existing law and policy. Like Maura's "list," this is another reason that this crap needs to be defined legislatively (or judicially, if absolutely necessary) and not at the whim of some agency or individual.
     
  26. DispositionMatrix

    DispositionMatrix NES Member

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    ATF Prosecutes Ohio Man for AR Pistol with Brace
    https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/superseding-indictment.pdf
     
  27. MMArtist

    MMArtist NES Member

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    "The equipment that brought about the alleged infraction included a Maxim CQB Pistol AR 15 PDW brace, Stark Express angled foregrip, and a flash suppressor that added about two inches to the 7.75-inch barrel."

    IMO this isn't really a deviation at all. If you put a "foregrip" on a pistol your in violation. I know some people think the Magpul AFG is ok.. I don't think that is correct.

    Hand stops only. That was the ruling as far as I knew.

    As far as them bending the rules as they see fit. That's nothing new. If you get in those cross hairs your gonna get shit on. Federal LE doesn't just drop charges and apologize.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  28. TomMontana

    TomMontana NES Member

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    Pic on arfcom show mods to the brace that removed the arm strap and added an end cap. Weird.

    [​IMG]
     
  29. amm5061

    amm5061 NES Member

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    Ohh, so that's the modification they're talking about. That is pretty weird.... It does change how it can be used from the original intent, but how the shit does that modification make it a stock? I guess the moral of the story is don't modify your brace?

    Also, what the shit with calling out the flash suppressor? Why the f*** would that matter on anything other than maybe after pin and weld making it long enough with the stock collapsed to avoid AOW status for a vertical fore grip?
     
  30. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry

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    That's not a brace; that is a "cheek rest" which comes from them just as show, less the end cap.
    Interestingly enough I'm not seeing it for sale on the Maxim website anymore, but it was there last month.

    [​IMG]


    Also the AFG has been OK'ed specifically by the ATF for pistols, but the Stark has not... See question #7 here.

    View: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx/view



    Looking at the Stark I could see why it COULD be called a "vertical grip"... I'd imagine the ATF was ok with the AFG because it's more like a handstop than a grip.

    [​IMG]
     

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