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ATF Special Agent Phone Call

drgrant said:
I've heard more than one person say that same thing though. "I got my 07 and the delays stopped".

-Mike
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Ironically, I know of an 07 that routinely gets delays with an occasional instant proceed. There's some speculation that a Top Secret clearance does impact the NICS check, but of course, no one behind the magic curtain will provide any details on that.
 
Y'all don't have to reply to a thread to see the outcome go under thread tools at the top and select "Subscribe to this Thread"
[laugh2]
 
noxin said:
Ironically, I know of an 07 that routinely gets delays with an occasional instant proceed. There's some speculation that a Top Secret clearance does impact the NICS check, but of course, no one behind the magic curtain will provide any details on that.
Click to expand...

I know that local PD has no access to security clearance info. No idea wrt FBI and NICS.
 
Outcome: He was able to verify my VAF UPIN with NICS (FBI) so I am not a Prohibited Person. The NH State Police incorrectly denied me and that's why it landed on his desk.

I asked if he originally called the FFL who transferred the firearms to me and he did. He said he would call them back to let them know the outcome as I told him I'd prefer not to be considered a "shitbag" to them. But of course, I am. Whatever, I'll become my own FFL.

All in all, I think this was a learning experience for both of us. I learned more about the ATF and he learned more about a citizen who knows his rights, how the agencies work and most importantly gets shit done! Plus I have a new contact in my rolodex!

In closing. He was extremely pleasurable to deal with and did seem to actually care about my rights and making sure the outcome was accurate, whether I was actually a PP or not. Hopefully, you get to deal with him if you are ever contacted by the ATF.

Feel Good Moment: He did say he was surprised that I got done what I got done without receiving a pardon. Maybe I should write a book someday. [smile]

Thanks all for tuning in!

*I am not a lawyer but if anyone ever has any questions on specifics please feel free to send a PM. I would love to share information on how to "work" with these agencies.*
 
cockpitbob said:
He's an ATF Special Agent and has the ability to completely ruin the rest of someone's life and he's asking you for advice on how to do his job!?!?!?!?

If he calls back, have a recorder ready and ask that you can record the phone call. Right now you have no evidence that he told you it's OK to ignore the letter.
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Start the call with "this line is being recorded"
 
jpk said:
So, what exacly was alleged to make you a PP and how/what did NHSP **** up?
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That the charge of "Malicious Destruction of Property Over $250" was never reduced to "Under $250". Over $250 carries a max prison term of 2 1/2 years while Under $250 carries a max of 2 1/2 months, in MA at least. But he also thought based on a past case "Wanton / Malicious Destruction of Property Under $250" was still punishable by up to 2 1/2 years, which would make me a PP.


ATF sees a PP as anyone: "convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year". So yeah.


But when it comes to NHSP they either did not look hard enough or didn't care to look at my history prior to submitting the denial. Considering I received my NH Non-Resident Pistol Permit a few years ago and NHSP approved that, not sure why they would deny me now. Laziness?
 
eColi said:
That the charge of "Malicious Destruction of Property Over $250" was never reduced to "Under $250". Over $250 carries a max prison term of 2 1/2 years while Under $250 carries a max of 2 1/2 months, in MA at least. But he also thought based on a past case "Wanton / Malicious Destruction of Property Under $250" was still punishable by up to 2 1/2 years, which would make me a PP.


ATF sees a PP as anyone: "convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year". So yeah.


But when it comes to NHSP they either did not look hard enough or didn't care to look at my history prior to submitting the denial. Considering I received my NH Non-Resident Pistol Permit a few years ago and NHSP approved that, not sure why they would deny me now. Laziness?
Click to expand...

The NH NICS POC for handguns totally sucks and has like a handful of people working in it, so I can't say I'm surprised that they lazebagged something. Usually it blows up every gun show weekend and every other customer gets administratively delayed.

This is just another argument for NH getting rid of its Handgun POC (and using the federal one) frankly. The only reason they even have that POC is it was a wallhack to get around the defunct as of like 20? 30? years ago, brady waiting period for handguns.... (basically states with a handgun POC were exempt from the wait, so NH used this as wallhack... but this wallhack is no longer needed and hasn't been for over 20 years at least I think.... )

That aside, I think you should work through some state legislators (maybe talk to JR Hoell, he's more gun-aware than a lot of others in the NH house ) (or even the governor's office) to try to put their feet to the fire on shit like this- their "little error" quite literally could have put someone who didn't have their shit together under serious legal peril. Particularly disturbing in this case was the fact that you likely supplied them with the VAF UPIN and the NH NICS POC either didn't honor this or had no way of querying it? Or was just too lazy to care to... and if its the latter, that's just ****ing negligent.

-Mike
 
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NH needs to go "Permanent Brady Permit" for NICS exemption

In case anybody is wondering, ATF has a little extra background on NH and the Brady wallhack.
drgrant said:
TThis is just another argument for NH getting rid of its Handgun POC (and using the federal one) frankly.
Click to expand...
Either that or tweak our resident P&R to serve as a Permanent Brady Permit, the provision under which certain carry permits qualify as an alternative to a NICS check (see 18 U.S.C. § 922(t)(3)(C)(i)(II)). Primarily that'd mean slightly reducing the validity period back down to 1,824 days or fewer.
 
drgrant said:
I've heard more than one person say that same thing though. "I got my 07 and the delays stopped".
Click to expand...

Fifty bucks a year isn't a huge amount of money, but it's a lot to pay to overcome the occasional delay. Not to mention, if you aren't actually manufacturing anything, ATF can decline to renew. Add the SOT, and it's an extra $1,000/yr.
 
drgrant said:
The NH NICS POC for handguns totally sucks and has like a handful of people working in it, so I can't say I'm surprised that they lazebagged something. Usually it blows up every gun show weekend and every other customer gets administratively delayed.

This is just another argument for NH getting rid of its Handgun POC (and using the federal one) frankly. The only reason they even have that POC is it was a wallhack to get around the defunct as of like 20? 30? years ago, brady waiting period for handguns.... (basically states with a handgun POC were exempt from the wait, so NH used this as wallhack... but this wallhack is no longer needed and hasn't been for over 20 years at least I think.... )

That aside, I think you should work through some state legislators (maybe talk to JR Hoell, he's more gun-aware than a lot of others in the NH house ) (or even the governor's office) to try to put their feet to the fire on shit like this- their "little error" quite literally could have put someone who didn't have their shit together under serious legal peril. Particularly disturbing in this case was the fact that you likely supplied them with the VAF UPIN and the NH NICS POC either didn't honor this or had no way of querying it? Or was just too lazy to care to... and if its the latter, that's just ****ing negligent.

-Mike
Click to expand...

I hope a NH resident petitions their reps for something like this, or better yet a carry permit that qualifies as a NICS exemption. I'm considering a move to NH but I am so spoiled with the NICS exemption for my Montana CWP that it sucks to go backwards in that regard. Before the ink is dry on the 4473 I'm out the door with my new handgun/long gun/other!
 
drgrant said:
The NH NICS POC for handguns totally sucks and has like a handful of people working in it, so I can't say I'm surprised that they lazebagged something. Usually it blows up every gun show weekend and every other customer gets administratively delayed.
Click to expand...

I've never had any NICS check be less than instant, until I moved to NH and bought a stripped lower (as "other than a rifle or shotgun", it goes through the NHSP POC). It was a weekday, slow, and I was the only customer in the shop. It still took 45 minutes to return with a "proceed".

I've always argued that switching to the FBI NICS for all transfers would be a net reduction in government, but some people in the NH gun community are extremely opposed, for reasons they can't quite explain. The arguments I've personally had were with some SAS VIPs who also attacked anyone supporting medical marijuana or cannabis decriminalization. They claimed advocates were lying and endangering RKBA rights by not carefully and explicitly pointing out that using any form of cannabis could make one a prohibited person. Again, how not pointing something out constitutes "lying" was not clear.
 
I dont doubt it because after a breif period of being to get an instant approval. Maybe 2/3 years.
Now it seems i have to wait the 3 days everytime. I have a transfer coming up shortly, id love for it to just be easy for once.

I never got any phone calls, i thought they just send the police.ive done a great number of innocent things that look questionable on paper. I just always assume with our .gov The lights are on and no one's home mentality, that noone ever investigates the majority of denials. Mostly because its either a false positive, or some one who legitimately didnt know they couldn't buy a gun because they plead out to something. That and the lack of manpower and massive number of checks processed
 
drgrant said:
The NH NICS POC for handguns totally sucks and has like a handful of people working in it, so I can't say I'm surprised that they lazebagged something. Usually it blows up every gun show weekend and every other customer gets administratively delayed.

This is just another argument for NH getting rid of its Handgun POC (and using the federal one) frankly. The only reason they even have that POC is it was a wallhack to get around the defunct as of like 20? 30? years ago, brady waiting period for handguns.... (basically states with a handgun POC were exempt from the wait, so NH used this as wallhack... but this wallhack is no longer needed and hasn't been for over 20 years at least I think.... )

That aside, I think you should work through some state legislators (maybe talk to JR Hoell, he's more gun-aware than a lot of others in the NH house ) (or even the governor's office) to try to put their feet to the fire on shit like this- their "little error" quite literally could have put someone who didn't have their shit together under serious legal peril. Particularly disturbing in this case was the fact that you likely supplied them with the VAF UPIN and the NH NICS POC either didn't honor this or had no way of querying it? Or was just too lazy to care to... and if its the latter, that's just ****ing negligent.

-Mike
Click to expand...

Saddening to hear that about NH NICS POC. Odd thing was I made my first trip to pick up my stripped lowered and was delayed. Provided my UPIN and all. Next day my Kimber Micro 9 arrived so I had them add that to paperwork. So the day before did the lower go through NICS and next day at some point Kimber went through NH NICS POC? Only paid one transfer fee.

The lady at FFL gave me the same speech I've heard before that the individual handling the background check didn't have proper authority to check UPIN. Needed a manager. So was it someone from NH NICS POC or NICS who said this?

Very valid points about state legislators. I will be contacting JR Hoell and the Governor. As you mentioned, imagine someone less informed received that call. Would they just have buckled? Upsetting to think about.
 
Federal UPIN

MGnoob said:
I dont doubt it because after a breif period of being to get an instant approval. Maybe 2/3 years.
Now it seems i have to wait the 3 days everytime. I have a transfer coming up shortly, id love for it to just be easy for once.
Click to expand...
Ever tried providing your SSN on the 4473?

Your best shot at solving the delay issue is to bite the bullet and go the VAF UPIN route.

MGnoob said:
ive done a great number of innocent things that look questionable on paper.
Click to expand...
That's not how NICS works. When you getting delayed, it's not about innocent things in your Facebook shadow profile, but rather because you (or somebody with a similar name) have records (in either the National Crime Information Center, the Interstate Identification Index, or the NICS Index) indicating "prohibited person" status -- arrests, indictments, court orders, dishonorable discharge, etc.
 
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eColi said:
Saddening to hear that about NH NICS POC. Odd thing was I made my first trip to pick up my stripped lowered and was delayed. Provided my UPIN and all. Next day my Kimber Micro 9 arrived so I had them add that to paperwork. So the day before did the lower go through NICS and next day at some point Kimber went through NH NICS POC? Only paid one transfer fee.

The lady at FFL gave me the same speech I've heard before that the individual handling the background check didn't have proper authority to check UPIN. Needed a manager. So was it someone from NH NICS POC or NICS who said this?

Very valid points about state legislators. I will be contacting JR Hoell and the Governor. As you mentioned, imagine someone less informed received that call. Would they just have buckled? Upsetting to think about.
Click to expand...

Ahhhm, that's interesting (the bolded bit). If they submitted your paperwork with "Other" checked and then added a "Handgun" to it after it was returned, that's a big no-no as I understand it. I've heard of people adding additional items of the same type for a 4473 though.
 
noxin said:
Ahhhm, that's interesting (the bolded bit). If they submitted your paperwork with "Other" checked and then added a "Handgun" to it after it was returned, that's a big no-no as I understand it. I've heard of people adding additional items of the same type for a 4473 though.
Click to expand...
I can't understand what you mean by "submitted" and "returned". Jack.
 
roccoracer said:
I have an FFL and have been delayed for the last dozen or so purchases.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
====> So, even though you have an FFL, you buy on a 4473? I get it in the case of the above poster, who didn't want to keep a 10/22 on the books to take out and use shooting, but...back when I had an FFL, you could sign it out as "for owner's personal use" and not do a 4473. Do you need a NICS check nowadays if you sigh one out this way?

eColi said:
But when it comes to NHSP they either did not look hard enough or didn't care to look at my history prior to submitting the denial. Considering I received my NH Non-Resident Pistol Permit a few years ago and NHSP approved that, not sure why they would deny me now. Laziness?
Click to expand...
====> They just had a posting for a job that was "Background Checker" for NH. I was always told that the POC was regular officers assigned to that. Obviously, they are adding a civilian for this spot. (You can tell it's not a Trooper, since it only required a fingerprint background check to qualify, and was only paying $13.65 an hour. ) Would have loved to apply, but who can live on $13.65? The person checking is probably limited to strictly checking a conviction record, especially since with a 4-5 year permit term someone could have gotten a conviction in between being issued a permit and the time of the background check. Just my .02

Kevin_NH said:
NH needs to go "Permanent Brady Permit" for NICS exemption

In case anybody is wondering, ATF has a little extra background on NH and the Brady wallhack.

Either that or tweak our resident P&R to serve as a Permanent Brady Permit, the provision under which certain carry permits qualify as an alternative to a NICS check (see 18 U.S.C. § 922(t)(3)(C)(i)(II)). Primarily that'd mean slightly reducing the validity period back down to 1,824 days or fewer.
Click to expand...

Ultrarunner said:
I hope a NH resident petitions their reps for something like this, or better yet a carry permit that qualifies as a NICS exemption. I'm considering a move to NH but I am so spoiled with the NICS exemption for my Montana CWP that it sucks to go backwards in that regard. Before the ink is dry on the 4473 I'm out the door with my new handgun/long gun/other!
Click to expand...
====> I argued for this in the past, since I always had a long drive down and back to the "better" gun shops in NH (with a wait in between). I was royally toasted by everyone, screaming "No, we don't want to make the permit more stringent. We are close to Con-Carry, and this could screw it up, or make it so that the "regular" permit was changed to a 'mandatory' enhanced one. "

I'm down in FL now, and deciding whether or not to become a resident (depends on finding a job). They use a POC, but it is well staffed, so I am told, and that the checks go through in 5-20 minutes (POC here handles all checks, including long guns). Of course, all the guns are expensive here, plus sales tax, and all of the ranges are very expensive as well.
 
one-eyed Jack said:
I can't understand what you mean by "submitted" and "returned". Jack.
Click to expand...

Missed this response last year.

Submitted == After the individual filled out the 4473 and the FFL provided the information to the NICS for the background check
Returned == After NICS completed the background check and provided a response.

I've always been told that adding additional types of firearms after the information has been submitted to NICS is not possible and a new 4473 is required.
 
I have been in touch with the ATF.

They have issued me a banana suit and requested I get your address to pick up the guns.

I wish to have this motion transpire post haste.

I will be sending a limo driven by a Nigerian Prince.

He will take you to western union to conduct the transfer.

Please return this correspondence at you earliest convenience to avoid inheritance tax.
 
Chevy 2 65 said:
cockpitbob said:
He's an ATF Special Agent and ... he's asking you for advice on how to do his job!?!?!?!?

If he calls back, have a recorder ready and ask that you can record the phone call.
Click to expand...
Start the call with "this line is being recorded this call may be recorded for quality insurance purposes"
Click to expand...
FTFY.
 

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