ATF Rules on establishing residency

[Noreaster]

A tax bill is the atf preferred document.l, it’s specifically called out by name in atf rulings. I started this thread because the towns move slow and I won’t have a tax bill with my name on it till July sometime and the water bill (billed from a state municipality) was rejected.

 

[Tater]

I am in the same situation as the OP in that I have a place in Vt. and would like to be able to purchase there. I have tax bills etc. Have never been able to get an answer on what exactly I need to purchase a firearm in Vt. Over the winter I was in an LGS and asked about it. The owner said he knew there was a way to do it but was not sure what exactly was needed. At any rate he said he would contact the ATF. I responded that I would have thought that it was a State matter and not ATF as it is my understanding that I am a resident of VT. when I am in VT. according to the ATF. He said no it would be up to the ATF over in Burlington. So he said he would and a month or so later I was back in and he had not contacted them which is fine with me. Kind of sounded like a can of worms involving the ATF. Thanks Len I will download that form.

just go to get a state ID. Not a VT drivers license but just a state ID. Then you show that and no question you are a resident of the state. Just need to meet the states proof you own property there .

 

[firestorm]

A tax bill is the atf preferred document.l, it’s specifically called out by name in atf rulings. I started this thread because the towns move slow and I won’t have a tax bill with my name on it till July sometime and the water bill (billed from a state municipality) was rejected.

Unless you already found a way and have the gun, it seems it would have been simpler to call around to other FFL's and find one that would do it with the proof you have then pay the shipping and transfer fee to get it out of the hands of the moron who is currently holding it.

 

[FrugalFannie]

Not that I believe that a time share would give you enough paperwork to provide proof but do you have a cite for this? If one does have a deed, or enough proof to provide it does not seem it would matter if it was a time share or a home you own and rent out most of the year. The ATF seems to have a broad definition of residency as long as you are only buying while you are residing there.

The "deed" states specifically that you have the right to use a specific unit in a specific location for 1 week per year, and what week that is. I don't have a "cite" but if you look at what you need to qualify as a dual resident, this won't pass muster. Nor should it. That being said - I disagree with ALL the current laws. However, being a "law abiding gun owner" I would not even attempt this. The consequences are not worth it.

 

[firestorm]

The "deed" states specifically that you have the right to use a specific unit in a specific location for 1 week per year, and what week that is. I don't have a "cite" but if you look at what you need to qualify as a dual resident, this won't pass muster. Nor should it. That being said - I disagree with ALL the current laws. However, being a "law abiding gun owner" I would not even attempt this. The consequences are not worth it.

The ATF rules are clear, while you might be smart not taking the chance that does not make it illegal. They do not specify any length of time you need to be somewhere, just that you be a legal part time resident and the types of paperwork that are acceptable to establish such residency.

 

[Boston4567]

The "deed" states specifically that you have the right to use a specific unit in a specific location for 1 week per year, and what week that is. I don't have a "cite" but if you look at what you need to qualify as a dual resident, this won't pass muster. Nor should it. That being said - I disagree with ALL the current laws. However, being a "law abiding gun owner" I would not even attempt this. The consequences are not worth it.

The ATF rules are clear, while you might be smart not taking the chance that does not make it illegal. They do not specify any length of time you need to be somewhere, just that you be a legal part time resident and the types of paperwork that are acceptable to establish such residency.

Firestorm is correct here, the requirement is the "intent to make a home" in the state, which means your residency can't be purely transient. Staying in a hotel once a year doesn't work because a hotel is by definition transient. Purchasing interest in a property, even for one week a year, has a level of permanency. Actually, it still would be legal to purchase while living in a hotel if you have a bona fide intention to make a home in that state. Say, if you're staying in a hotel because your job transferred you, and you're looking for an apartment.

The caveats here are, 1) you can only buy while you're actually residing in the state, which in this case would be only once a year during your timeshare week, and 2) you have to convince the FFL to accept your proof of residency, which really means you need a NH ID in this case. They'll mail the ID to your timeshare address and I'm not sure how receiving mail works in that scenario.

That said, using a timeshare for residency is probably not a great idea, it was just interesting to discuss

 

[Dennis in MA]

A time share does not qualify any more than renting a hotel room for a week would qualify.

Why am I picturing the scene in The Jerk when Steve Martin is leaving the house. "All I need is my coat and my dignity. . . and this lamp. . . .and this. . . " LOL

Firestorm is correct here, the requirement is the "intent to make a home" in the state, which means your residency can't be purely transient. Staying in a hotel once a year doesn't work because a hotel is by definition transient. Purchasing interest in a property, even for one week a year, has a level of permanency. Actually, it still would be legal to purchase while living in a hotel if you have a bona fide intention to make a home in that state. Say, if you're staying in a hotel because your job transferred you, and you're looking for an apartment.

The caveats here are, 1) you can only buy while you're actually residing in the state, which in this case would be only once a year during your timeshare week, and 2) you have to convince the FFL to accept your proof of residency, which really means you need a NH ID in this case. They'll mail the ID to your timeshare address and I'm not sure how receiving mail works in that scenario.

That said, using a timeshare for residency is probably not a great idea, it was just interesting to discuss

IANAL, but why do people think that "owning" a time-share creates any extra sense of "intent" than renting a motel room??? (I'm asking rhetorically, not specifically to you, B-dog. But if you have an opinion, have at it.)

The odds of them giving two S-words is low, but as far as they lay it out, any sort of temp abode is a no-go.

Maybe OWNING a plot on a campground! Although I don't camp. Nor do I have a camper. LOL

 

[firestorm]

Why am I picturing the scene in The Jerk when Steve Martin is leaving the house. "All I need is my coat and my dignity. . . and this lamp. . . .and this. . . " LOL



IANAL, but why do people think that "owning" a time-share creates any extra sense of "intent" than renting a motel room??? (I'm asking rhetorically, not specifically to you, B-dog. But if you have an opinion, have at it.)

The odds of them giving two S-words is low, but as far as they lay it out, any sort of temp abode is a no-go.

Maybe OWNING a plot on a campground! Although I don't camp. Nor do I have a camper. LOL

It's a thought experiment more than anything else I think. But how is a timeshare different in this case form a vacation home that you use one week a year and rent out otherwise? You still are a resident the week you are there, and otherwise have no tie to the home except ownership (You don't get mail there year round, can't just drop in if someone else is there, etc.) A time share is a little different on ownership, but functionally similar. A motel is different as you are renting, as available, a space you have no ownership stake of and is by definition temporary (Unless you live in the motel, which would be a separate issue)

 

[Dennis in MA]

You can stay longer than a week in a vacation home. You're SOL if you try and over-stay your week at a Time Share.

I still like my postage-stamp-lot in FL idea. Of course, then I'd have to go to FL for the guns.

 

[Boston4567]

You can stay longer than a week in a vacation home. You're SOL if you try and over-stay your week at a Time Share.

I still like my postage-stamp-lot in FL idea. Of course, then I'd have to go to FL for the guns.

It's not so much about the length of the stay. The key is, you need to have the "intention to make a home". This would be my textual interpretation of the necessary elements...

Intent is defined in the dictionary as "the state of a person's mind that directs his or her actions toward a specific object." Ownership (or lease) of a property serves as indicia of intent, which is critical.

Home is defined in the dictionary as "a house, apartment, or other shelter that is the usual residence of a person, family, or household." We know ATF they interprets "usual" using the definition of "habitual or customary" rather than "commonplace; everyday" because vacation homes qualify. So a timeshare, even once a year, provides sufficient periodicity of residency to qualify as a "home".

 

[FrugalFannie]

It's a thought experiment more than anything else I think. But how is a timeshare different in this case form a vacation home that you use one week a year and rent out otherwise? You still are a resident the week you are there, and otherwise have no tie to the home except ownership (You don't get mail there year round, can't just drop in if someone else is there, etc.) A time share is a little different on ownership, but functionally similar. A motel is different as you are renting, as available, a space you have no ownership stake of and is by definition temporary (Unless you live in the motel, which would be a separate issue)

It's not. If you use a second property 1 week per year and rent it out the rest of the time, it is NOT a residence and would not establish residency for you. So neither would work.

 

[firestorm]

It's not. If you use a second property 1 week per year and rent it out the rest of the time, it is NOT a residence and would not establish residency for you. So neither would work.

Ok, so we are back to throwing out nonsense with no proof or cite? Yes, it would. You don't need to "Establish residency" like you would to vote. You need to meet the ATF's requirements only. Having a vacation home in a state that you go to each year is your home that week each year. You are present in the state at that time, and have an intention to make "a" home in that state.

"For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a State in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that State."

 

[FrugalFannie]

Ok, so we are back to throwing out nonsense with no proof or cite? Yes, it would. You don't need to "Establish residency" like you would to vote. You need to meet the ATF's requirements only. Having a vacation home in a state that you go to each year is your home that week each year. You are present in the state at that time, and have an intention to make "a" home in that state.

"For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a State in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that State."

Go ahead and try it. Owning a rental property in a state does not equate to having an intent to making a "home" in that location.

 

[drgrant]

Go ahead and try it. Owning a rental property in a state does not equate to having an intent to making a "home" in that location.

That doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong, but I can bet that most dealers would laugh at that assertion wrt a timeshare. At that point one would seek a better indicia of residency like a state ID card or something else. (but I doubt most
states would consider that residency, either).

On the other hand, if you own a condo or something, and you only occupy it a few times a year (and the rest its being rented out to rando people via an agency or whatever) that most certainly is residency, hell you will have a property tax bill for it.

I think most dealers would laugh at you if you showed a timeshare agreement as proof of residency. Timeshares are basically garbage. That's like having a
contract for a book of the month club or something. It's not even real property.

-Mike

 

[Boston4567]

It's not. If you use a second property 1 week per year and rent it out the rest of the time, it is NOT a residence and would not establish residency for you. So neither would work.

Go ahead and try it. Owning a rental property in a state does not equate to having an intent to making a "home" in that location.

Hard to argue with someone who states opinions as fact without citations or explanations of reasoning.

This has already been explained in the thread; ATF has explicit examples in the CFRs of what constitutes intention of making a home. They say a second home you only summer at or go to on weekends counts. So living there just a few months of the year is explicitly OK.

There is no requirement in the regulations as to how frequently you need to reside at that house. Just that you can only buy guns during the periods you reside there.

 

[42!]

That doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong, but I can bet that most dealers would laugh at that assertion wrt a timeshare. At that point one would seek a better indicia of residency like a state ID card or something else. (but I doubt most
states would consider that residency, either).

On the other hand, if you own a condo or something, and you only occupy it a few times a year (and the rest its being rented out to rando people via an agency or whatever) that most certainly is residency, hell you will have a property tax bill for it.

I think most dealers would laugh at you if you showed a timeshare agreement as proof of residency. Timeshares are basically garbage. That's like having a
contract for a book of the month club or something. It's not even real property.

-Mike

Some timeshare is deeded and others not. If it's not deeded, its nothing more than a contract to use the property. If the company goes belly up, you've got nothing. If it's deeded you actually own 1/52 (assuming one week) of the property and you will have a deed. If the managing company goes belly up, you still own your 1/52 of the condo. The owners can then get together and hire a new management company. The owners can also fire the management company, something you can't do if all you have is a contract to use.

 

[firestorm]

Go ahead and try it. Owning a rental property in a state does not equate to having an intent to making a "home" in that location.

Not sure how many times this has to be gone over, Rental property is fine 100% no question. The timeshare was a thought experiment, it would likely not fly unless you managed to get some government document allowing you to get an ID card so that the kind of residence is never discussed. Just opining that if one didn't know it was a timeshare, the difference in real terms is minimal.

 

[noxin]

Yeah. That was it, HH. I think they kept a car down there for the winter.

I don't think he ever used the NR DL to buy anything because we thought he'd get put into PMITA Prison for it. LOL

My son (And now daughter - long story - will send Pix soon) lives in MO. Short of hi-cap mags, he is gonna be home in less than 3 years and can bring me anything I REALLY "need."

Did you just admit to conspiring to commit a straw purchase? Where's the pot stirring emoji?

 

[42!]

Did you just admit to conspiring to commit a straw purchase? Where's the pot stirring emoji?

here you go, enjoy.

 

[LittleCalm]

To get a non driver ID in NH, there is a defined set of docs you need to present to the DMV and you can get either a RealID compliant ID or a non-compliant ID. The requirements are pretty similar except that for the RealID compliant ID you essentially need an extra doc. The easiest route (IMO) is to get a non compliant ID, for which you will need a US passport, a SSN card and either a propert tax bill or a utility bill that says “for service at” your NH property. If you want RealID compliant, then you would need both the property tax bill and the utility bill.

I have yet to do this but it may be helpful to be able to show to an FFL. That said, I understand that some FFLs will just take the tax and/or utility bill. But I can see the benefit to being able to whip out a state ID card which always looks more official and robust for proving residency.

 

[amm5061]

A tax bill is the atf preferred document.l, it’s specifically called out by name in atf rulings. I started this thread because the towns move slow and I won’t have a tax bill with my name on it till July sometime and the water bill (billed from a state municipality) was rejected.

If you have a second utility bill then grab your passport/birth certificate and social security card and go get the VT photo ID. Cost you $24.

 

[CrackPot]

If you have a second utility bill then grab your passport/birth certificate and social security card and go get the VT photo ID. Cost you $24.

While maybe in practice they do not enforce this, you cannot get a non drivers ID in VT without surrendering your drivers license from another state.

Non-Driver Identification | Department of Motor Vehicles

Applicants under age 18 are required to have a parent/guardian sign the application for the Identification Card. Applicants that hold a valid driver's license, permit, or Non-Driver ID card from another state are only eligible for a Vermont Non-Driver ID card if they surrender their out-of-state card. Applicants that hold a valid driver's license from another country are eligible for a Vermont Non-Driver ID card and are not required to surrender their out-of-country driver’s license.

 

[amm5061]

While maybe in practice they do not enforce this, you cannot get a non drivers ID in VT without surrendering your drivers license from another state.

Non-Driver Identification | Department of Motor Vehicles

Hrm... Missed that part. I assumed that VT gave as few shits about such things as NH.

 

[Keeper]

To get a non driver ID in NH, there is a defined set of docs you need to present to the DMV and you can get either a RealID compliant ID or a non-compliant ID. The requirements are pretty similar except that for the RealID compliant ID you essentially need an extra doc. The easiest route (IMO) is to get a non compliant ID, for which you will need a US passport, a SSN card and either a propert tax bill or a utility bill that says “for service at” your NH property. If you want RealID compliant, then you would need both the property tax bill and the utility bill.

I have yet to do this but it may be helpful to be able to show to an FFL. That said, I understand that some FFLs will just take the tax and/or utility bill. But I can see the benefit to being able to whip out a state ID card which always looks more official and robust for proving residency.

IANAL, but AFAIK, this is technically not allowed in NH. The application notes "proof of NH residency" and NH defines residency to the exclusion of all others in Section 21:6 Resident; Inhabitant..

 

[Reptile]

IANAL, but AFAIK, this is technically not allowed in NH. The application notes "proof of NH residency" and NH defines residency to the exclusion of all others in Section 21:6 Resident; Inhabitant..

I thought you can be a duel resident.

 

[LittleCalm]

IANAL, but AFAIK, this is technically not allowed in NH. The application notes "proof of NH residency" and NH defines residency to the exclusion of all others in Section 21:6 Resident; Inhabitant..

Don't conflate the NH residency requirements with the ATF dual residency requirements. If NH gives you the non-driver's ID card b/c you represent that you are a resident of NH, you should be good as far as ATF is concerned. As noted above, some FFLs will just accept a copy of your NH property tax bill. As I noted above, I haven't tried to get a NH non-driver ID so maybe they will require that you not have a driver's license from any other state.

 

[CrackPot]

I thought you can be a duel resident.

You trying to pick a fight (Duel vs dual)?

ATF residency has nothing to do with what requirements a state has for residency. Confuse the two at your own peril.

 

[Reptile]

You trying to pick a fight (Duel vs dual)?

ATF residency has nothing to do with what requirements a state has for residency. Confuse the two at your own peril.

Are you saying the ATF rules for dual residency are not in the favor of a NH dual resident who has a non drivers ID?

 

[Boston4567]

Are you saying the ATF rules for dual residency are not in the favor of a NH dual resident who has a non drivers ID?

He was making the point that technically the NH DMV probably isn't supposed to give you a NH ID under NH law unless your primary abode is located in NH. Based on my reading of the laws, I think he's probably right. But that doesn't matter from a practical standpoint, because it appears that if you give the NH DMV the documents they require, they give you an ID. And I don't believe there is any individual legal liability from submitting the ID application and documents to the DMV, even if the address submitted is for your NH vacation home.*

And either way, this has no bearing on your ability to purchase firearms, and no bearing on ATF's definitions. A NH ID is just one option for proving residency under ATF's definition to a NH FFL.

* You could make the argument that it's a violation of RSA 641:3 to put your NH address on the ID application because of the RSA 21:6 residency definition. I'd argue it's not; I don't think that would come close to triggering any of the 641:3 provisions. Regardless, it would never be prosecuted.

 

[Boston4567]

As I noted above, I haven't tried to get a NH non-driver ID so maybe they will require that you not have a driver's license from any other state.

I believe there are others who have posted in this thread that have gotten a NH ID while they have a DL from another state. The law requires the NH DMV to issue an ID unless they have a NH DL, so they couldn't impose a "no DL from any state" requirement without changing the law.