ATF Rules on establishing residency

[HorizontalHunter]

TO be clear, my specific issue is i will not have a tax bill with my name in it until end of July or august.
Since i don't have tax bill, i asked what other documents can be accepted. The FFL was unsure and escalated to ATF - the agent didn't reply to that request (as far as i know)
The first document i had was a water bill, so i asked if that could be used, since the dealer was again unsure, they asked the ATF and was told NO.

Its this NO that surprised me - since this is a document with my name, and my VT address on it, as well as being issued by government entity. Thats why i posted, as i thought it was commonly accepted.

As frustrated as i am with the dealer for not just taking a doc that seems to be within the law, i can also understand that if they have a loose cannon ATF agent that audits them, they may need excessive CYA.

It has to be a government issued document. The water department is a utility company. As was mentioned above, your best bet is likely getting a state issued ID.

Bob

This is from the back of the 4473:

Question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation: Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of transferee/buyer may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's/buyer's residence address. This supplemental documentation should be recorded in question 18.b., with the issuing authority and type of identification presented. For example, if the transferee/buyer has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address. A valid electronic document from a government website may be used as supplemental documentation provided it contains the transferee's/buyer's name and current residence address.

 

[Noreaster]

In Vermont, the "North Branch Fire District" is a government entity, not a utility company. Conversely, Green Mountain Power, is a private utility company.

 

[Noreaster]

Have you looked into other dealers?

I pre-paid to get it ordered before the laws were signed. They had to get it in inventory prior to the signing.
I was happy they were willing to work with me in this regard.

 

[Asaltweapon]

I pre-paid to get it ordered before the laws were signed. They had to get it in inventory prior to the signing.
I was happy they were willing to work with me in this regard.

Yes, sorry I forgot reading that in your posts. My bad.

 

[gws1063]

While you have to wait for a tax bill, you should be able to request a Certificate of Municipal Liens. That should list you as the property owner in the eyes of the town if I remember correctly.

-Gary

 

[ackar]

HorizontalHunter Thanks for that info. Have to get a copy of 4473. I was looking at them online and did not see the section you quoted.

 

[Noreaster]

HorizontalHunter Thanks for that info. Have to get a copy of 4473. I was looking at them online and did not see the section you quoted.

LMGTFY
its the very first link, right to the pdf.

Page 4, question 2
Page 5, question 18.b

 

[ackar]

Yes northeaster I did see your earlier post yesterday. Thanks to you also. Good info. I somehow skipped over it though last night while I was looking for a copy of the form online. Saw the page 2 notes but not the page 5 stuff - my bad.

 

[Boston4567]

Yes, when you are residing in your house in Maine you are a resident of Maine per atf rules. The tax bill is usually all you need although it’s a good idea to also have a utility bill. Paper copies are required though they may accept an emailed pdf. I have made purchases from three ffls in Maine, including a very large one, with no issues. All you need to do is ask. Some are more informed than others but the three I worked with knew the law and had no hesitation.

This is very interesting, I didn't know this... So if you own a vacation home in NH, you can buy guns there legally as long as you're residing in that house, and going up for the weekend counts. Transaction takes place between NH residents in NH, so MA has no jurisdiction, no eFA-10 filed. And LTC means you can take it to your MA home if you want (just no AW/high-cap mags).

Where this could become interesting is if you own a week in a NH timeshare.... granted, you could only buy during that one week each year you're residing there. But I wonder whether that would fly?

 

[drgrant]

Where this could become interesting is if you own a week in a NH timeshare.... granted, you could only buy during that one week each year you're residing there. But I wonder whether that would fly?

If you could produce enough indicia of residency it's trivially easy to make any plane fly.

-Mike

 

[firestorm]

I pre-paid to get it ordered before the laws were signed. They had to get it in inventory prior to the signing.
I was happy they were willing to work with me in this regard.

Find another dealer and have dealer one ship to dealer two, pay transfer fee, win. Might be worth the cost to get it done with and out of the hands of the overparanoid dealer.

 

[noxin]

This is very interesting, I didn't know this... So if you own a vacation home in NH, you can buy guns there legally as long as you're residing in that house, and going up for the weekend counts. Transaction takes place between NH residents in NH, so MA has no jurisdiction, no eFA-10 filed. And LTC means you can take it to your MA home if you want (just no AW/high-cap mags).

Where this could become interesting is if you own a week in a NH timeshare.... granted, you could only buy during that one week each year you're residing there. But I wonder whether that would fly?

The general consensus and typical interpretation of the FA10 law is that once you (as a MA Resident) bring a firearm into the state it has to be FA10'd.

 

[Len-2A Training]

This is very interesting, I didn't know this... So if you own a vacation home in NH, you can buy guns there legally as long as you're residing in that house, and going up for the weekend counts. Transaction takes place between NH residents in NH, so MA has no jurisdiction, no eFA-10 filed. And LTC means you can take it to your MA home if you want (just no AW/high-cap mags).

Where this could become interesting is if you own a week in a NH timeshare.... granted, you could only buy during that one week each year you're residing there. But I wonder whether that would fly?

See below.

Good luck with the timeshare idea. No way I expect any dealer to go for that deal. It's hard enough to find the dealers who will do it by the book (BATFE rules) without trying to stretch it to a 1 week/year timeshare (so-called) owner.

The general consensus and typical interpretation of the FA10 law is that once you (as a MA Resident) bring a firearm into the state it has to be FA10'd.

It's the law.

 

[Boston4567]

The general consensus and typical interpretation of the FA10 law is that once you (as a MA Resident) bring a firearm into the state it has to be FA10'd.

The consensus as I understood very strongly was that if you're a non-MA resident and you move into MA, the law says you don't have to eFA-10 anything. Are you saying that this situation is distinguished because you're already an MA resident even though the lawful transaction occurs out of state (any may even be temporally distanced significantly from its possession in MA - let's say I leave it at my uncle's house in NH for a few months)? If so, cite?

Good luck with the timeshare idea. No way I expect any dealer to go for that deal. It's hard enough to find the dealers who will do it by the book (BATFE rules) without trying to stretch it to a 1 week/year timeshare (so-called) owner.

I have no interest in an FFL's regulatory interpretations, or in even doing anything to prompt them to look into it. But I'm also not interested in breaking any laws. I'd come in to buy a firearm while legitimately living in NH that week of the year, with a NH ID, and with a property tax bill for my unit. Timeshares are real property and are taxed as real estate directly from the municipality to the owner (in the owner's name), as I understand, so I'd have that paperwork.

This would be a legitimate home and I would intend to (and would in fact) continue to maintain it as a home each year in NH. I like to ski, so this would be a timeshare on Attitash or similar. It's an actual situation that could happen independent of the desire to buy firearms out of state.

From a legal perspective, do you think that would cut it? I realize that from a practical perspective, 1) if you show up to an FFL talking about a timeshare, a sale is not happening, because it seems sketchy, and 2) if you show up to an FFL with ample proof of residence, which I would, they will allow the sale. So I'm only concerned as to whether this would actually be legal, if all actions were bona fide and not undertaken as a thinly veiled attempt to skirt laws.

Conceptually, this would be no different from purchasing a house on Lake Winnipesaukee and AirBNB'ing it out 51 weeks of the year, but living in it that 52nd week every single year, right? Granted, buying a firearm during the week of residence in that scenario (full year ownership / week of residency annually) might be illegal also.

 

[Reptile]

Get a VT ID and be done with it:

Types of Licenses & IDs | Department of Motor Vehicles
Vermont Residency | Department of Motor Vehicles

On second thought: if you have a DL from another state you can't get one of these.

 

[amm5061]

The consensus as I understood very strongly was that if you're a non-MA resident and you move into MA, the law says you don't have to eFA-10 anything. Are you saying that this situation is distinguished because you're already an MA resident even though the lawful transaction occurs out of state (any may even be temporally distanced significantly from its possession in MA - let's say I leave it at my uncle's house in NH for a few months)? If so, cite?

He's saying that if you, an MA resident, purchase a gun out of state and then bring that gun back into MA, you must eFA-10 the gun within 7 days of it entering the state. That's the law. Just leave shit you purchase in NH, in NH! No need to register if it never enters MA.

A person who moves here from out of state and brings his shit with him, keeping it locked up, has something like 60 days (not sure of the actual number) to apply for and receive an LTC. That person has no legal obligation to register their guns once they receive their LTC.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Boston4567,

There is only one reason why those moving in with guns do not have to register them. To file an FA-10 one must have a LTC # AND do so within 7 days of a gun moving into MA . . . you can't possibly comply with that as it takes months to get the LTC. Thus they built in this ONE exemption.

Once you have a LTC and bring a gun in from out of state (even if you owned it before the move), you must file an FA-10 to be in compliance with the law.

As for timeshares, my personal experience was not in the US, but I do suspect it is similar to buying a US timeshare. We were given no deed, got no tax bills. We had a contract which explained our "rights" to the property. All taxes paid on the property were billed to the company contracted to manage the property and were built into the annual "maintenance fee" that we paid. No way I can see any city/town issuing 52 tax bills on a single property. I doubt any US timeshare comes with a legitimate deed filed in a county land court.

 

[Racenet]

The consensus as I understood very strongly was that if you're a non-MA resident and you move into MA, the law says you don't have to eFA-10 anything. Are you saying that this situation is distinguished because you're already an MA resident even though the lawful transaction occurs out of state (any may even be temporally distanced significantly from its possession in MA - let's say I leave it at my uncle's house in NH for a few months)? If so, cite?

I have no interest in an FFL's regulatory interpretations, or in even doing anything to prompt them to look into it. But I'm also not interested in breaking any laws. I'd come in to buy a firearm while legitimately living in NH that week of the year, with a NH ID, and with a property tax bill for my unit. Timeshares are real property and are taxed as real estate directly from the municipality to the owner (in the owner's name), as I understand, so I'd have that paperwork.

This would be a legitimate home and I would intend to (and would in fact) continue to maintain it as a home each year in NH. I like to ski, so this would be a timeshare on Attitash or similar. It's an actual situation that could happen independent of the desire to buy firearms out of state.

From a legal perspective, do you think that would cut it? I realize that from a practical perspective, 1) if you show up to an FFL talking about a timeshare, a sale is not happening, because it seems sketchy, and 2) if you show up to an FFL with ample proof of residence, which I would, they will allow the sale. So I'm only concerned as to whether this would actually be legal, if all actions were bona fide and not undertaken as a thinly veiled attempt to skirt laws.

Conceptually, this would be no different from purchasing a house on Lake Winnipesaukee and AirBNB'ing it out 51 weeks of the year, but living in it that 52nd week every single year, right? Granted, buying a firearm during the week of residence in that scenario (full year ownership / week of residency annually) might be illegal also.

This is exactly why we need the wall.

 

[pdogg77]

This is exactly why we need the wall.

Seriously... Can we please stop talking about this before someone decides they need to pass a law to close the "two house loophole"???

 

[Boston4567]

Boston4567,

There is only one reason why those moving in with guns do not have to register them. To file an FA-10 one must have a LTC # AND do so within 7 days of a gun moving into MA . . . you can't possibly comply with that as it takes months to get the LTC. Thus they built in this ONE exemption.

Once you have a LTC and bring a gun in from out of state (even if you owned it before the move), you must file an FA-10 to be in compliance with the law.

As for timeshares, my personal experience was not in the US, but I do suspect it is similar to buying a US timeshare. We were given no deed, got no tax bills. We had a contract which explained our "rights" to the property. All taxes paid on the property were billed to the company contracted to manage the property and were built into the annual "maintenance fee" that we paid. No way I can see any city/town issuing 52 tax bills on a single property. I doubt any US timeshare comes with a legitimate deed filed in a county land court.

Thanks, the FA-10 requirement makes sense now.

I do know that in some states (CA for example) property tax for timeshares is billed separately, in part because of the statutory right to request an abatement. And many do require recorded deeds.

Setting aside timeshares, it does seem like legal boundaries of the residency requirement have some gray areas, and I can't find much as far as case law.

• My grandfather bought an RV and a deeded plot in a NH RV park (had a mailbox/address). He would drive it up there and park it for a few weeks or months at a time every summer. Resident for ATF purposes?
• Some other family members have a summer cottage (no heat/insulation/mail delivery) that's deeded to a trust with the extended family as beneficiaries, and share it each summer. Resident for ATF purposes?
  
• A guy who owns a house and AirBNB's it out for all but a week each summer. Resident for ATF purposes?

There may not be a concrete answer to any of these, but the gray areas do seem to go beyond the hypothetical (and semi-absurd) timeshare question.

 

[jasons]

Just going to leave this right here:
What constitutes residency in a State? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a State in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that State.

 

[Boston4567]

Just going to leave this right here:
What constitutes residency in a State? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a State in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that State.

Yes, the question I'm getting at is, how loosely does BATFE define "home"? They're explicitly OK with summer houses and vacation houses, so based on existing guidance, their view of a "home" is very expansive.

Combine that expansive guidance with the dearth of case law, and the message I'm getting is that BATFE isn't interested in using this particular law to go full retard on law-abiding citizens. If you have some type of interest in or connection to a property in NH, reside there even infrequently or sporadically, and you have a legit NH ID card with that address to give an FFL, you're good to go.

Long-term girlfriend lives in NH and you stay at her place sometimes? Shared family house on Lake Winnipesaukee you stay at? Parents live in NH and you stay in your childhood bedroom whenever you go home to visit? Get a NH ID with that address and only buy during periods you're actually residing there, and you're in the clear.

At least that's my takeaway, unless anyone can point to case law or ATF guidance to the contrary

 

[pdogg77]

At least that's my takeaway, unless anyone can point to case law or ATF guidance to the contrary

As has been stated, the ATF's position is on the form. Find an FFL that will do the transaction according to the printed instructions and provided documents you've got and have a nice day. IMHO No one should go poking the ATF bear over this... in the end they are not your friend... Poking them for opinions in writing is how you get things like "If you look at a pistol brace and wink you made an SBR"

 

[Asaltweapon]

As has been stated, the ATF's position is on the form. Find an FFL that will do the transaction according to the printed instructions and provided documents you've got and have a nice day. IMHO No one should go poking the ATF bear over this... in the end they are not your friend... Poking them for opinions in writing is how you get things like "If you look at a pistol brace and wink you made an SBR"

Agreed. The rules are clear. If the FFL doesn't want to deal then find one that will. There is no requirement that they sell anything to you.

Don't poke the bear!!!

 

[jasons]

Yes, the question I'm getting at is, how loosely does BATFE define "home"? They're explicitly OK with summer houses and vacation houses, so based on existing guidance, their view of a "home" is very expansive.

Combine that expansive guidance with the dearth of case law, and the message I'm getting is that BATFE isn't interested in using this particular law to go full retard on law-abiding citizens. If you have some type of interest in or connection to a property in NH, reside there even infrequently or sporadically, and you have a legit NH ID card with that address to give an FFL, you're good to go.

Long-term girlfriend lives in NH and you stay at her place sometimes? Shared family house on Lake Winnipesaukee you stay at? Parents live in NH and you stay in your childhood bedroom whenever you go home to visit? Get a NH ID with that address and only buy during periods you're actually residing there, and you're in the clear.

At least that's my takeaway, unless anyone can point to case law or ATF guidance to the contrary

It's possible to over-think this stuff. The local dealer needs to "check the box." Give them what they need to do so and go about your business. It really is that simple.

 

[Reptile]

If you have a girlfriend that lets you stay at her place in NH, that is not enough to get a NH ID.

The state website has info on what is needed to get one.

 

[Boston4567]

If you have a girlfriend that lets you stay at her place in NH, that is not enough to get a NH ID.

The state website has info on what is needed to get one.

Notarized letter from property owner or current resident is sufficient.

 

[drgrant]

If you have a girlfriend that lets you stay at her place in NH, that is not enough to get a NH ID.

Lol yes it is, you're just not very creative.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

It's possible to over-think this stuff. The local dealer needs to "check the box." Give them what they need to do so and go about your business. It really is that simple.

this +1000000....

 

[Boston4567]

It's possible to over-think this stuff. The local dealer needs to "check the box." Give them what they need to do so and go about your business. It really is that simple.

this +1000000....

I agree now. I just wanted to know if residency edge cases are something ATF ever jams people up on. Asked and answered at this point - it seems clear they don't.

It was worth exploring since even if you have the right docs and the FFL checks that box, it would be a crime to receive across state lines if ATF doesn't consider you a resident.

Thanks for the info.