ATF Rules on establishing residency

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Well i am trying to take possession of a Pistol i purchased in VT. I purchased a place there in March, however i will not have a tax bill with my name on it until July or august. However i do have a water bill from a government entity.
The ATF agent for the FFL said that it would not be sufficient for establishing residency. Has ATF ruling 2001-5 been superseded? Is a water bill truly not enough to satisfy 2001-5?
 
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I was in a similar position in Maine. I had to get a letter from the town clerk's office on official town letterhead stating that I was the owner of the house.
 
All: Thanks for the feedback.
I cant get a VT ID because i need to retain my MA residence (I'm a part time VT'r) for now anyway.
I asked about the paperwork and they could not verify with the ATF agent. (i am starting to think this agent is just a "no - no - no" type person.
I like the letterhead idea, wonder if they will be willing to do that. Ill have to give them a call, between 10 and noon, on Thursday's lol Thanks for that idea.
 
All: Thanks for the feedback.
I cant get a VT ID because i need to retain my MA residence (I'm a part time VT'r) for now anyway.
I asked about the paperwork and they could not verify with the ATF agent. (i am starting to think this agent is just a "no - no - no" type person.
I like the letterhead idea, wonder if they will be willing to do that. Ill have to give them a call, between 10 and noon, on Thursday's lol Thanks for that idea.


Why is there an ATF agent involved? This is a simple "What will the FFL accept as legal proof that you are a resident in the state" issue.
 
I was wondering that, too....


I can understand that an FFL might be a pain in the ass about it, as they want to be totally sure that they are doing the right thing, but if they called and got an ATF agent involved for some reason then this has gone way beyond buying a pistol in a state that you are a part time resident in. As far as I know the way the ATF sees these things hasn't changed, you are an official resident of that state while you are currently residing there.
 
Why is there an ATF agent involved? This is a simple "What will the FFL accept as legal proof that you are a resident in the state" issue.

Not sure, i purchased in March, just as all the crap was firing up in VT. I rushed to get something on order before the mags became an issue. However my DL is mass and the FFL only knew about a TAX BILL as being an alternate proof of residency. They had to inquire about alternate documents. I proposed the water bill as that was the first document i got with my name on it. They asked ATF (supposedly just to CYA) and were told no - go.
In all honesty i have a stack of papers form the closing that make it damn obvious i own something. Not sure why this is such a big freaking deal.
 
I cant get a VT ID because i need to retain my MA residence
A VT ID is not like a driving license - there is no interstate compact to revoke licenses or IDs from MA. If you have utility bills, proof of identity and legal status, and can pay the fee you can get a VT ID without sacrificing you MA residency.
 
Not sure, i purchased in March, just as all the crap was firing up in VT. I rushed to get something on order before the mags became an issue. However my DL is mass and the FFL only knew about a TAX BILL as being an alternate proof of residency. They had to inquire about alternate documents. I proposed the water bill as that was the first document i got with my name on it. They asked ATF (supposedly just to CYA) and were told no - go.
In all honesty i have a stack of papers form the closing that make it damn obvious i own something. Not sure why this is such a big freaking deal.


Ok, It sounded like there was an agent with some direct connection to this issue/the FFL since you said "The ATF agent for the FFL". Unfortunately they are not very clear on documents, and so one government drone will have a different view from another.

From the atf's website "A combination of government issued documents may be used to meet the requirements of an identification document. For example, a passport which contains the name, date of birth, and photograph of the holder may be combined with a voter or vehicle registration card containing the residence address of the transferee in order to comply with the identification document requirements. A passport issued by a foreign government is also acceptable so long as it has all of the required information."

Seems to mean that any government issued document (I would say a water bill would be fine, but obviously this FFL is paranoid and then got potentially crappy info) would fit the bill as long as it is your name and has the residence address along with your other ID. I would ask what they will accept, and if it is stupid/impossible, go talk to another FFL about what they require and just take your business to somewhere that actually wants it.
 
You can even get out of your vehicle for gas or calls of nature as long as you can prove you did not have intent to detain or delay yourself when you entered RI.

Why is there an ATF agent involved? This is a simple "What will the FFL accept as legal proof that you are a resident in the state" issue.

Not sure, i purchased in March, just as all the crap was firing up in VT. I rushed to get something on order before the mags became an issue. However my DL is mass and the FFL only knew about a TAX BILL as being an alternate proof of residency. They had to inquire about alternate documents. I proposed the water bill as that was the first document i got with my name on it. They asked ATF (supposedly just to CYA) and were told no - go.
In all honesty i have a stack of papers form the closing that make it damn obvious i own something. Not sure why this is such a big freaking deal.

Sadly you are dealing with a willfully ignorant FFL and likely will never satisfy him DL the BATFE 4473 form from atf.gov website, circle the instructions for how one proves residency and then bring it with you (plus some docs that meet that requirement) to the FFL, read it to him as he likely has a reading disability.

If he insists on the BATFE agent, call while there and insist on speaking with a supervisor. Read form info to him.

Good luck.
 
Just tell them you're an undocumented resident and they'll have a knee-jerk reaction and probably not realize you said "resident" instead of "immigrant."
 
I was in a similar position in Maine. I had to get a letter from the town clerk's office on official town letterhead stating that I was the owner of the house.
I have houses in Mass and Maine am I able to go to the LGS and purchase anything that is legal in Maine? I have a copy of my property tax bill on my phone will that do? What is the procedure please?
 
I have houses in Mass and Maine am I able to go to the LGS and purchase anything that is legal in Maine? I have a copy of my property tax bill on my phone will that do? What is the procedure please?

Yes - 4473 has instructions right on it for folks that reside in more than 1 state.

Page 4, question 2
Page 5, question 18.b
 
I am in the same situation as the OP in that I have a place in Vt. and would like to be able to purchase there. I have tax bills etc. Have never been able to get an answer on what exactly I need to purchase a firearm in Vt. Over the winter I was in an LGS and asked about it. The owner said he knew there was a way to do it but was not sure what exactly was needed. At any rate he said he would contact the ATF. I responded that I would have thought that it was a State matter and not ATF as it is my understanding that I am a resident of VT. when I am in VT. according to the ATF. He said no it would be up to the ATF over in Burlington. So he said he would and a month or so later I was back in and he had not contacted them which is fine with me. Kind of sounded like a can of worms involving the ATF. Thanks Len I will download that form.
 
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I am in the same situation as the OP in that I have a place in Vt. and would like to be able to purchase there. I have tax bills etc. Have never been able to get an answer on what exactly I need to purchase a firearm in Vt. Over the winter I was in an LGS and asked about it. The owner said he knew there was a way to do it but was not sure what exactly was needed. At any rate he said he would contact the ATF. I responded that I would have thought that it was a State matter and not ATF as it is my understanding that I am a resident of VT. when I am in VT. according to the ATF. He said no it would be up to the ATF over in Burlington. So he said he would and a month or so later I was back in and he had not contacted them which is fine with me. Kind of sounded like a can of worms involving the ATF. Thanks Len I will download that form.
It is absolutely NOT a state matter. State residency as seen by the state does not matter. Federal law is what only allows the purchase of handguns in your state of residency. You need to satisfy federal law/ATF to determine residency.

When I had an apartment in TX for work, I got a state non-drivers ID. This required lease and a couple utility bills. done.
 
I have houses in Mass and Maine am I able to go to the LGS and purchase anything that is legal in Maine? I have a copy of my property tax bill on my phone will that do? What is the procedure please?
Yes, when you are residing in your house in Maine you are a resident of Maine per atf rules. The tax bill is usually all you need although it’s a good idea to also have a utility bill. Paper copies are required though they may accept an emailed pdf. I have made purchases from three ffls in Maine, including a very large one, with no issues. All you need to do is ask. Some are more informed than others but the three I worked with knew the law and had no hesitation.
 
Yes, when you are residing in your house in Maine you are a resident of Maine per atf rules. The tax bill is usually all you need although it’s a good idea to also have a utility bill. Paper copies are required though they may accept an emailed pdf. I have made purchases from three ffls in Maine, including a very large one, with no issues. All you need to do is ask. Some are more informed than others but the three I worked with knew the law and had no hesitation.
My current issue was putting the house in solely my wife’s name for ‘other reasons’. My paper bills for services still come to MA. That is slowly changing as all of these are no big deal if over/under paid when I pay the bills old school. No auto withdrawal allowed in this house.
 
Crackpot - I get it. The 4473 form appears to be pretty clear that one can have residence in two states. Even explains how to properly fill out the form in that case. Now you have an ATF agent telling the OP/FFL that a tax bill is not sufficient to claim residency. Somewhere I read that the property in the "other" state must be a residence not just land, makes sense but not sure if that is true and what if you just camp on your land? In that case a utility bill would be a good addition, I would think. The question then remains, for the OP, what is proof of residency? If the ATF guy is telling him no what is his next move? Perhaps calling the ATF and getting a written opinion? I suppose for me that is a call I will need to make.
 
Crackpot - I get it. The 4473 form appears to be pretty clear that one can have residence in two states. Even explains how to properly fill out the form in that case. Now you have an ATF agent telling the OP/FFL that a tax bill is not sufficient to claim residency. Somewhere I read that the property in the "other" state must be a residence not just land, makes sense but not sure if that is true and what if you just camp on your land? In that case a utility bill would be a good addition, I would think. The question then remains, for the OP, what is proof of residency? If the ATF guy is telling him no what is his next move? Perhaps calling the ATF and getting a written opinion? I suppose for me that is a call I will need to make.


Honestly, leave the ATF the f*** out of it and RTFM. The 4473 is pretty damn clear. Involving the ATF is just inviting them to f*** things up even more for the rest of us. It's all that convenience store alphabet soup crackerjack agency is good for.
 
Honestly, leave the ATF the f*** out of it and RTFM. The 4473 is pretty damn clear. Involving the ATF is just inviting them to f*** things up even more for the rest of us. It's all that convenience store alphabet soup crackerjack agency is good for.

It's pretty common for a dealer to call them up when they are dazed and confused.

Most of this is caused by the dealer causing the problem, the OP wouldn't have this problem if the dealer just said "we need this, this, this or this, nothing else works, end". It's all laid out in the rules somewhere. The dealer he is working with obviously only has a vague understanding of the law.

-Mike
 
The dealer he is working with obviously only has a vague understanding of the law.

The issue is that the ATF is in the same boat and then we get more made up shit like: "the OAL of a rifle must be measured with the stock completely collapsed" or "let's ban bump stocks cuz we're the ATF and we say so."
 
Crackpot - I get it. The 4473 form appears to be pretty clear that one can have residence in two states. Even explains how to properly fill out the form in that case. Now you have an ATF agent telling the OP/FFL that a tax bill is not sufficient to claim residency. Somewhere I read that the property in the "other" state must be a residence not just land, makes sense but not sure if that is true and what if you just camp on your land? In that case a utility bill would be a good addition, I would think. The question then remains, for the OP, what is proof of residency? If the ATF guy is telling him no what is his next move? Perhaps calling the ATF and getting a written opinion? I suppose for me that is a call I will need to make.
The OP's issue is that his name is not on the tax bill, NOT that he needs more documentation than the tax bill. He bought the house in March and thus has a tax bill with the previous owners name on it.
 
Crackpot - I get it. The 4473 form appears to be pretty clear that one can have residence in two states. Even explains how to properly fill out the form in that case. Now you have an ATF agent telling the OP/FFL that a tax bill is not sufficient to claim residency. Somewhere I read that the property in the "other" state must be a residence not just land, makes sense but not sure if that is true and what if you just camp on your land? In that case a utility bill would be a good addition, I would think. The question then remains, for the OP, what is proof of residency? If the ATF guy is telling him no what is his next move? Perhaps calling the ATF and getting a written opinion? I suppose for me that is a call I will need to make.


Gun store stupidity aside, the easy way if a tax bill is not accepted is to use said tax bill to get a non driver's ID and then simply walk in and slap down that as your form of ID.
 
TO be clear, my specific issue is i will not have a tax bill with my name in it until end of July or august.
Since i don't have tax bill, i asked what other documents can be accepted. The FFL was unsure and escalated to ATF - the agent didn't reply to that request (as far as i know)
The first document i had was a water bill, so i asked if that could be used, since the dealer was again unsure, they asked the ATF and was told NO.

Its this NO that surprised me - since this is a document with my name, and my VT address on it, as well as being issued by government entity. Thats why i posted, as i thought it was commonly accepted.

As frustrated as i am with the dealer for not just taking a doc that seems to be within the law, i can also understand that if they have a loose cannon ATF agent that audits them, they may need excessive CYA.
 
TO be clear, my specific issue is i will not have a tax bill with my name in it until end of July or august.
Since i don't have tax bill, i asked what other documents can be accepted. The FFL was unsure and escalated to ATF - the agent didn't reply to that request (as far as i know)
The first document i had was a water bill, so i asked if that could be used, since the dealer was again unsure, they asked the ATF and was told NO.

Its this NO that surprised me - since this is a document with my name, and my VT address on it, as well as being issued by government entity. Thats why i posted, as i thought it was commonly accepted.

As frustrated as i am with the dealer for not just taking a doc that seems to be within the law, i can also understand that if they have a loose cannon ATF agent that audits them, they may need excessive CYA.

Have you looked into other dealers?
 
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