ATF Rules on establishing residency

[42!]

Digging up this old thread because I have a question about NH ID cards and pistol permits, as I'm buying a vacation property in NH.

ID Cards: The application requires you to disclose if you have an out of state driver's license. Will this prevent me from getting the ID? Looking for actual experiences - I know the law does not require surrender of an out of state DL (scroll up in this thread for details), but that doesn't mean the bureaucrats interpret the law correctly in practice.

Pistol Permit: The permit application asks for a DL #. I would be applying for a resident permit. Would an MA DL be a red flag? Could I just leave it blank?

But remember;
1. you don't need a P&R in NH, it get's you some reciprocity and carry on a rec vehicle but otherwise unnecessary (so does the non-res).
2. a NH non-res is just as easy to get, and easier to carry in your wallet.
3. should be able to buy guns/ammo with proof of residency, doesn't have to be a DL
4. NH isn't like MA, check the law, if it doesn't say an out of state DL is a disqualifier then you will get the C&R. CoP will follow the statute.

 

[Boston4567]

But remember;
1. you don't need a P&R in NH, it get's you some reciprocity and carry on a rec vehicle but otherwise unnecessary (so does the non-res).
2. a NH non-res is just as easy to get, and easier to carry in your wallet.
3. should be able to buy guns/ammo with proof of residency, doesn't have to be a DL
4. NH isn't like MA, check the law, if it doesn't say an out of state DL is a disqualifier then you will get the C&R. CoP will follow the statute.

1 - true, unless the Democrats take over and repeal con carry. Also, can't legally buy handguns in a private sale without a P&R.
2 - true, but the fee is higher for non-res and reciprocity is different. For me, a resident NH permit unlocks carry in Colorado, Pennsylvania, and Florida. Non-res gets me 0 additional states.
3 - true, just figured an ID would simplify things
4 - where it gets complicated is in the definition of resident as it pertains to a P&R. I'm not changing my primary residence at this time. At some point (maybe in this thread) we delved deeply into the definition of resident in NH law as it pertains to IDs and P&Rs. While I should be OK under the statute as a part-time resident, it's convoluted and giving an MA DL # could still raise questions. Or maybe it wouldn't matter because in NH they aren't interested in making up reasons to bust your balls. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

1 - true, unless the Democrats take over and repeal con carry. Also, can't legally buy handguns in a private sale without a P&R.
2 - true, but the fee is higher for non-res and reciprocity is different. For me, a resident NH permit unlocks carry in Colorado, Pennsylvania, and Florida. Non-res gets me 0 additional states.
3 - true, just figured an ID would simplify things
4 - where it gets complicated is in the definition of resident as it pertains to a P&R. I'm not changing my primary residence at this time. At some point (maybe in this thread) we delved deeply into the definition of resident in NH law as it pertains to IDs and P&Rs. While I should be OK under the statute as a part-time resident, it's convoluted and giving an MA DL # could still raise questions. Or maybe it wouldn't matter because in NH they aren't interested in making up reasons to bust your balls. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

PM sent regarding no. 4.

 

[powerman]

Will be going through this shortly, I plan on staying on my land in tent/ camper/ short term. NH does not make it easy.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I recall reading that if you file for an NH ID, they will cancel your DL wherever it was issued. Can't say for certain as I've never had a need to file for an ID anywhere and always had a DL since age 17.

 

[42!]

1 - true, unless the Democrats take over and repeal con carry. Also, can't legally buy handguns in a private sale without a P&R.
2 - true, but the fee is higher for non-res and reciprocity is different. For me, a resident NH permit unlocks carry in Colorado, Pennsylvania, and Florida. Non-res gets me 0 additional states.
3 - true, just figured an ID would simplify things
4 - where it gets complicated is in the definition of resident as it pertains to a P&R. I'm not changing my primary residence at this time. At some point (maybe in this thread) we delved deeply into the definition of resident in NH law as it pertains to IDs and P&Rs. While I should be OK under the statute as a part-time resident, it's convoluted and giving an MA DL # could still raise questions. Or maybe it wouldn't matter because in NH they aren't interested in making up reasons to bust your balls. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Not so sure about 1. Working from memory the law requires the seller to know that the buyer is not prohibited, so the risk is on the seller. And having a P&R has been generally accepted as sufficient proof. But I would think having any type/state permit/license would also be sufficient.

as for 2, Blue state below honor NH non-res

Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Maps (Updated March 2024)

Our Concealed Carry Reciprocity Maps are the most up-to-date CCW maps available. View which states accept your concealed carry permits. Great for traveling.

www.usacarry.com

 

[Boston4567]

Not so sure about 1. Working from memory the law requires the seller to know that the buyer is not prohibited, so the risk is on the seller. And having a P&R has been generally accepted as sufficient proof. But I would think having any type/state permit/license would also be sufficient.

as for 2, Blue state below honor NH non-res
View attachment 361812

Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Maps (Updated March 2024)

Our Concealed Carry Reciprocity Maps are the most up-to-date CCW maps available. View which states accept your concealed carry permits. Great for traveling.

www.usacarry.com

I take it there's some controversy around this law, but see RSA 159:14. I believe if effect this is saying you can only sell pistols and revolvers to people you know personally or that have a P&R:

None of the provisions of this chapter shall prohibit an individual not licensed under the provisions thereof who is not engaged in the business of selling pistols or revolvers from selling a pistol or revolver to a person licensed under this chapter or to a person personally known to him.

As far as reciprocity, the question isn't what reciprocity a permit has in general, it's what states it adds to my existing stack of permits (MA res, AZ non-res, ME non-res). I use this to generate maps with various scenarios: Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Map Builder. There's no net add from a non-res NH permit from a reciprocity standpoint. But NH resident adds CO, PA, FL.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

I take it there's some controversy around this law, but see RSA 159:14. I believe if effect this is saying you can only sell pistols and revolvers to people you know personally or that have a P&R:


As far as reciprocity, the question isn't what reciprocity a license has in general, it's what it adds to my existing stack of licenses (MA res, AZ non-res, ME non-res). I use this to generate maps with various scenarios: Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Map Builder. There's no net add from a non-res NH license from a reciprocity standpoint. But resident adds CO, PA, FL.

"Known to you personally" generally means that someone produces a driver's license or a state-issued ID card. Driver's license suffices in most cases. Or, just do the transfer at a FFL, but that's not a paperless transaction.

 

[Boston4567]

"Known to you personally" generally means that someone produces a driver's license or a state-issued ID card. Driver's license suffices in most cases. Or, just do the transfer at a FFL, but that's not a paperless transaction.

Does it work that way in practice? I do want the ability for paperless FTF transactions, but my worry is that sellers will be conservative due to a combination of the lack of a mens rea requirement in RSA 159:7 (sale to felons) plus the federal law around selling across state lines.

My reasoning for wanting a NH ID and/or NH P&R is, I don't expect private sellers to be as schooled in the nuances of ATF residency rules as an FFL. If I produce a non-resident P&R and MA DL, that's a red flag on selling across state lines - two indicia of an out of state buyer. NH ID, good to go on residency but not proof I'm not a felon. If I produce a NH resident P&R, I'm good to go.

Maybe sellers aren't that conservative in practice, though.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Does it work that way in practice? I do want the ability for paperless FTF transactions, but my worry is that sellers will be conservative due to a combination of the lack of a mens rea requirement in RSA 159:7 (sale to felons) plus the federal law around selling across state lines.

My reasoning for wanting a NH ID and/or NH P&R is, I don't expect private sellers to be as schooled in the nuances of ATF residency rules as an FFL. If I produce a non-resident P&R and MA DL, that's a red flag on selling across state lines - two indicia of an out of state buyer. NH ID, good to go on residency but not proof I'm not a felon. If I produce a NH resident P&R, I'm good to go.

Maybe sellers aren't that conservative in practice, though.

You're seriously over-thinking this, and please don't say mens rea, I don't need a repeat of my Criminal Law and Criminal Procedure classes, just say "intent"

It depends on the individual you're dealing with. Comb the WTS ads here by NH residents and look to see what they require. If someone has a NH carry permit, that's generally that and story's over. A non-res carry permit is just that, a non-res carry permit, not a substitute for "knowing" someone, and you'd have to do private sales through FFLs, I think.

 

[granitestater]

Does it work that way in practice? I do want the ability for paperless FTF transactions, but my worry is that sellers will be conservative due to a combination of the lack of a mens rea requirement in RSA 159:7 (sale to felons) plus the federal law around selling across state lines.

My reasoning for wanting a NH ID and/or NH P&R is, I don't expect private sellers to be as schooled in the nuances of ATF residency rules as an FFL. If I produce a non-resident P&R and MA DL, that's a red flag on selling across state lines - two indicia of an out of state buyer. NH ID, good to go on residency but not proof I'm not a felon. If I produce a NH resident P&R, I'm good to go.

Maybe sellers aren't that conservative in practice, though.

As far as im concerned, if you want the benefits of NH residencey, get a drivers licesne and become a resident. We could use another gun voter and you might save on taxes.

 

[Len-2A Training]

"Known to you personally" generally means that someone produces a driver's license or a state-issued ID card. Driver's license suffices in most cases. Or, just do the transfer at a FFL, but that's not a paperless transaction.

No way that I would accept a DL as "proof" that the person isn't a prohibited person. Usually gun licenses are confiscated when someone is charged with a PP-level crime.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

No way that I would assume that I would accept a DL as "proof" that the person isn't a prohibited person. Usually gun licenses are confiscated when someone is charged with a PP-level crime.

Like I said, then, if you're not comfortable, there's the FFL transfer route. Which typically scares off the prohibited persons.

 

[Boston4567]

As far as im concerned, if you want the benefits of NH residencey, get a drivers licesne and become a resident. We could use another gun voter and you might save on taxes.

Seriously considering it. First I need to actually buy the house, and see how good the internet is up north. I'll start with half-time and see if this work from home BS continues for much longer. The place I'm buying is not within a commutable distance of the jobs in my industry, which are basically all in MA. So my ability to switch residency is dependent on WFH being an option for the foreseeable future, which is far from certain.

You're seriously over-thinking this, and please don't say mens rea, I don't need a repeat of my Criminal Law and Criminal Procedure classes, just say "intent"

It depends on the individual you're dealing with. Comb the WTS ads here by NH residents and look to see what they require. If someone has a NH carry permit, that's generally that and story's over. A non-res carry permit is just that, a non-res carry permit, not a substitute for "knowing" someone, and you'd have to do private sales through FFLs, I think.

Yeah, I think the gist of it is that YMMV, but it's probably easier to buy FTF if you have a NH ID and resident NH P&R. And the resident permit is cheaper, and comes with reciprocity benefits. That's enough to make me apply. We'll see how it works out.

 

[42!]

I take it there's some controversy around this law, but see RSA 159:14. I believe if effect this is saying you can only sell pistols and revolvers to people you know personally or that have a P&R:



As far as reciprocity, the question isn't what reciprocity a permit has in general, it's what states it adds to my existing stack of permits (MA res, AZ non-res, ME non-res). I use this to generate maps with various scenarios: Concealed Carry Permit Reciprocity Map Builder. There's no net add from a non-res NH permit from a reciprocity standpoint. But NH resident adds CO, PA, FL.

Obviously I would have no knowledge of your stack of permits, but generally speaking a NH non-res does get some resiprocity, I've found the linked map to be accurate and it does distiguish resident v. non-resident.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

Like I said, then, if you're not comfortable, there's the FFL transfer route. Which typically scares off the prohibited persons.

FFL route scares off everyone. If I'm buying private sale, I don't want the hassle of driving to someone's dealer and then having to wait for the check to clear (which has taken 24 hours, 9 days and 5 days for the last 3).

As for the R.S.A, the lack of clarity comes from R.S.A. 159:10 (licensed dealers) and 159:14 (allows a person not licensed "under this chapter" to sell to someone if the buyer is "personally known to the seller"). The confusion/interpretation is whether "licensed under this chapter" refers only to FFL holders, or people with a P&R. I had an online argument with person who insisted that "person licensed under this chapter" meant a dealer, and that you didn't need the P&R, as long as you don't sell to a felon". So I asked him that if the chapter meant "licensed dealer" and not someone with a P&R, then that meant that you couldn't sell to someone unless you knew them, right? He didn't see it that way, either.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

When we first moved out to AZ, tried to get a non-driver ID. They were going to take the VT D/L and said that Federal law did not allow us to have 2 ID's. When we moved back to NH, NH would also not allow us to keep AZ D/L's and just get a NH non-driver ID.

 

[Boston4567]

When we first moved out to AZ, tried to get a non-driver ID. They were going to take the VT D/L and said that Federal law did not allow us to have 2 ID's. When we moved back to NH, NH would also not allow us to keep AZ D/L's and just get a NH non-driver ID.

Got it, thanks. How long ago was that? Do you know if it involved a REAL ID compliant card?

Federal regulations prohibit holding more than one REAL ID card (DL or ID): 6 CFR § 37.29 - Prohibition against holding more than one REAL ID card or more than one driver's license. As a result the language in the RSA on REAL ID compliant IDs (260:21-a) is actually clearer on the prohibition on holding an out of state driver's license than the one for non-compliant cards (260:21).

 

[Qwikdraw45]

Got it, thanks. How long ago was that? Do you know if it involved a REAL ID compliant card?

Federal regulations prohibit holding more than one REAL ID card (DL or ID): 6 CFR § 37.29 - Prohibition against holding more than one REAL ID card or more than one driver's license. As a result the language in the RSA on REAL ID compliant IDs (260:21-a) is actually clearer on the prohibition on holding an out of state driver's license than the one for non-compliant cards (260:21).

To AZ in 2005, and back to NH in 2012. NH didn't have REAL ID then; I don't think the AZ licenses were, either.