ATF reclassifies Franklin Reformation as a shotgun! 16" are now an SBS.

[The5thDentist]

View: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2492479334213935&id=390011867794036

 

[Boris]

I hope that Franklin Armory sue motherf***ers.

ATF has issued a letter approving the design and it seems like they are trying to find or create reasons to make it into SBS for no reason other than close what they feel is a loophole. They are not interpreting any f***ing laws.

This bullshit has to stop. It's not the first time ATF went 180 on their ruling. Business loss be damned, they are not only infringing, they are f***ing making their own laws.

 

[eboos]

Introducing the Franklin Armory Reformation. Brought to you by every teenage child who argues with their parents.

My 2cents... whatever. Effing dumb novelty item without ammo support. Don't agree with NFA, but, in a consequence free environment, I do agree with the classification of at least it being "a firearm".

 

[Boris]

Introducing the Franklin Armory Reformation. Brought to you by every teenage child who argues with their parents.

My 2cents... whatever. Effing dumb novelty item without ammo support. Don't agree with NFA, but, in a consequence free environment, I do agree with the classification of at least it being "a firearm".

believe it or not Soviets spend a whole shitload of time developing projectiles for smoothbores or barrels without spin (over 20 years of research). Don't be so quick to label that as "novelty" because you never heard of them.

Also, I'm not a teenager and ATF is not my dada to tell me what I should own.

 

[eboos]

believe it or not Soviets spend a whole shitload of time developing projectiles for smoothbores or barrels without spin (over 20 years of research). Don't be so quick to label that as "novelty" because you never heard of them.

Also, I'm not a teenager and ATF is not my dada to tell me what I should own.

Rocket projectiles were also developed, but they failed to achieve any meaningful benefit or purpose.

As far as the teenager comment goes: mine will try to exploit every loophole within a rule, in complete disregard for the intent of the rule, to get what they want. That seems to be the exact logic of this "not a rifle, shotgun, or firearm" thingamajig.

I am all for repealing the NFA and with that you can lather yourself up in Hoppes #9 and buy all the stupid crap that you can afford, I have no problem with that. I just don't think the ATF was off base here. The failing was in the initial determination.

 

[SpaceCritter]

I hope that Franklin Armory sue motherf***ers.

ATF has issued a letter approving the design and it seems like they are trying to find or create reasons to make it into SBS for no reason other than close what they feel is a loophole. They are not interpreting any f***ing laws.

This bullshit has to stop. It's not the first time ATF went 180 on their ruling. Business loss be damned, they are not only infringing, they are f***ing making their own laws.

They can get away with it cuz estoppel doesn't apply to fed.gov

 

[Bonesinium]

They didn’t rule that it’s a shotgun under the NFA. They actually ruled that it is NOT. It should still not require a tax stamp. As far as transfer and transportation, they are apparently making that shit up as they go.

 

[drgrant]

Introducing the Franklin Armory Reformation. Brought to you by every teenage child who argues with their parents.

My 2cents... whatever. Effing dumb novelty item without ammo support. Don't agree with NFA, but, in a consequence free environment, I do agree with the classification of at least it being "a firearm".

The only reason they did that was to try to get around SBR bullshit.

ATF did it for them when they allowed pistol braces, that pretty much killed any relevance the reformation had, because nobody is going to bother with that shit now (at least in the 40 something free states where you can easily buy an AR / AK "pistol" .

-Mike

 

[Boris]

The only reason they did that was to try to get around SBR bullshit.

ATF did it for them when they allowed pistol braces, that pretty much killed any relevance the reformation had, because nobody is going to bother with that shit now (at least in the 40 something free states where you can easily buy an AR / AK "pistol" .

-Mike

"braces" is another good example of a long road with lots of rulings and lawsuits. Unfortunately I can't put "brace" on my PPSh and I don't want 16" barrel either. As for accuracy, it won't suffer without rifling.

And "bumpstocks" another bullshit "decision" (because POTUS axed us to) over "bullshit" laws.


This ATF business is essentially a bullshit olympics. ATF comes us with things like strings are MGs, and companies come up with bullshit like "stabilizing brace" We all know that ATF is clearly infringes on 2a, but play along and ATF plays along pretending that they are "interpreting" the law. So we might as well just drop the whole f***ing agency and all the "examinations" departments and just one bureaucrat deciding that freedom is just too dangerous for general public.

 

[Boris]

Rocket projectiles were also developed, but they failed to achieve any meaningful benefit or purpose.

we are not talking about rocket projectiles. Smoothbore weapons and smoothbore stabilization is a long and involved topic. Long enough for books and yes, there are volumes of books on the topic. Like I said, Soviets did spend over 20 years of research on it and results weren't bad. The ammo wasn't more expensive. Problems with over penetration were figured out. It had some advantages like increased speed, barrel longevity, simplicity and much flatter trajectories. But this is all mechanics.


ATF is basically a cock block for poor people. If you got cash, you can own tanks, planes, never mind suppressors in MA. Big brother doesn't want some riff-raff shooting off bump stocks or rifles with 15 and 3/4" barells. NFA from it's inception was exactly that, because 200$ fees almost 100 years ago were real money. It's not an infringement, "it's a tax"

 

[E.Stoner]

I ruled it as a POS the moment I saw it.

 

[drgrant]

"braces" is another good example of a long road with lots of rulings and lawsuits. Unfortunately I can't put "brace" on my PPSh and I don't want 16" barrel either. As for accuracy, it won't suffer without rifling.

And "bumpstocks" another bullshit "decision" (because POTUS axed us to) over "bullshit" laws.


This ATF business is essentially a bullshit olympics. ATF comes us with things like strings are MGs, and companies come up with bullshit like "stabilizing brace" We all know that ATF is clearly infringes on 2a, but play along and ATF plays along pretending that they are "interpreting" the law. So we might as well just drop the whole f***ing agency and all the "examinations" departments and just one bureaucrat deciding that freedom is just too dangerous for general public.

I agree, but I think in the case of braces the ATF actually rolled over and admitted defeat (or rather, the inherent stupidity of a law regulating short barreled rifles) because it made life easier for them.... as long as AK/AR braces exist, the # of SBR applications will be dramatically lower than they would be otherwise. So they flip flopped, and then conceded the brace thing as a way to take pressure off the NFA branch.

-Mike

 

[Zappa]

ATF is basically a cock block for poor people. If you got cash, you can own tanks, planes, never mind suppressors in MA. Big brother doesn't want some riff-raff shooting off bump stocks or rifles with 15 and 3/4" barells. NFA from it's inception was exactly that, because 200$ fees almost 100 years ago were real money. It's not an infringement, "it's a tax"

This^

Thankfully, and I can't figure out why the price hasn't increased, it's still $200.
In 1934 that was the equivalent of $3,835 today, usually more than the cost of the firearm itself.

 

[amm5061]

This^

Thankfully, and I can't figure out why the price hasn't increased, it's still $200.
In 1934 that was the equivalent of $3,835 today, usually more than the cost of the firearm itself.

Shhh!

But yeah, I'm sure the ATF would love more money to go out and buy more guns for the Mexican cartels.

 

[CrackPot]

It is a GCA/SBS not a NFA/SBS. So no tax stamp but other SBS rules apply. It needs a mechanism to be sold and a mechanism for interstate transport. The challenge to finding a gap in the collection of firearm laws and rules is the gaps you did not anticipate. They found a way to avoid the NFA and the ATF agreed. But it’s still a SBS so has other strings.

While it may not be what they hoped for it’s not the worst ruling ever made by the ATF.

 

[eboos]

This^

Thankfully, and I can't figure out why the price hasn't increased, it's still $200.
In 1934 that was the equivalent of $3,835 today, usually more than the cost of the firearm itself.

In the 1920's and 30's the Thompson M1921 and variants sold for approximately $200, which was expensive for a gun in its class at the time. The $200 NFA tax was equal to the cost of a Thompson at the time and deliberately prohibitive.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

They wanted to be able to nab the Chicago gangsters for tax evasion Jack.

 

[The5thDentist]

They wanted to be able to nab the Chicago gangsters for tax evasion Jack.

And Ladies and Gentleman, that circles us around to Prohibition, which you can see out the port side of the aircraft. We won't change course on the thread, but we all know that was another BS .gov overreach, demanded by the people because "PEOPLE WILL DIE"!

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Got the blurb from ATF in the mail today. Looks like they are mailing to all dealers. Your tax dollars at work. Jack.

 

[EC1]

The ATF is in the same sh-thole as the IRS. They both get to write their own rules(laws?) and the congress critters hide their heads in the sand (too bad it isn't concrete).

 

[one-eyed Jack]

The ATF is in the same sh-thole as the IRS. They both get to write their own rules(laws?) and the congress critters hide their heads in the sand (too bad it isn't concrete).

Well, all that they have to worry about is how many vacation days left this year, how many years to retirement and where they left their car. Jack.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Lol this thing is stupid.

What are mad about, this is a toy for retards.

I don't want one, so I don't care.

I love the taste of federal issued boot polish.

Thank you daddy fed, what am I allowed to own now?

 

[EC1]

Well, all that they have to worry about is how many vacation days left this year, how many years to retirement and where they left their car. Jack.

Plus if they lost their carry gun or if they lost track of an odd AR/AK, or more, sold to the Mexican cartels.

 

[T-Unit]

I agree, but I think in the case of braces the ATF actually rolled over and admitted defeat (or rather, the inherent stupidity of a law regulating short barreled rifles) because it made life easier for them.... as long as AK/AR braces exist, the # of SBR applications will be dramatically lower than they would be otherwise. So they flip flopped, and then conceded the brace thing as a way to take pressure off the NFA branch.

-Mike

I don't think it was that, it's just that there were probably so many braces already in circulation and people shooting the braces off their shoulder when nobody was looking that the ATF couldn't prosecute every case and just said "fugg it" but made sure to make the language about "incidental, sporadic, or situational use" hella vague so that they're not completely ruling out that using a pistol brace as a stock won't be prosecuted as an unregistered SBR at some future point in some future context.

Since that letter basically legalized the use of braces for shouldering they've exploded in popularity so much now that they're for all intents and purposes "in common use" which means that SCOTUS may strike down the SBR law in the future. While the Miller case in the 30s has been used by many a judge to throw out challenges to anti gun laws, that case almost entirely revolved around SBS so much so that any other challenge to any other NFA item regulation can be interpreted differently.

 

[T-Unit]

When the Reformation was revealed, I had the idea at the time that the straight grooves could be used in shotgun barrels to work around the short barrel shotgun law and I'm figuring that the ATF thought the same (maybe their technology branch had been getting inundated with such designs?) and they're cutting this off early before Mossberg 500s/590s and Remmy 870s with 12 inch straight grooved barrels are flying off the shelves.

I don't really care because if I wanted a short shotgun, I'd buy a Kel Tec KSG that has no grey areas about its existence. It's an 18 inch barrel, 26 inch OAL shotgun, nothing else.