ATF Raids Polymer 80

[Broc]

I think I’m past the panic buying, I’ve bought so much during prior panics. But I feel like 3D printers and some important files could be the next things on the ban list.

I dont think 3D printers will get banned. But files could. Politicians are already freaking out over files.

 

[namedpipes]

I think I’m past the panic buying, I’ve bought so much during prior panics. But I feel like 3D printers and some important files could be the next things on the ban list.

3d printing of firearms is a neat idea and it works, but they're not all that practical. 10 years from now, another story.

As for bans, the same components that create a 3d printer can create a kid's robotic toy. And vice versa. That ship got out of the bag before the barn doors could sail closed.

 

[KBCraig]

Clearly this one doesn't understand how a search warrant works . . .
.

This one understands exactly how search warrants work.

Search warrants list the thing to be seized, and the basis for believing where it might be found. As soon as that object is found, the warrant if fulfilled and there is no more legal justification for searching.

You can't search for an elephant in a dresser drawer. Especially not if the elephant has already been found.

Now if you're really saying that police routinely ignore limits and violate 4A when serving warrants, I can't really disagree with that.

 

[OnTheRoad]

Except the warrant for an 80% will probably include "tools, fixtures and devices for finishing or assembly" which means they will look anyplace big enough for a roll pin or a drill bit.

 

[Boris]

I dont think 3D printers will get banned. But files could. Politicians are already freaking out over files.

I don't know how, DD's beef was exactly about sharing files and I was somewhat surprised that a lot of files are hosted in many different places and quality of those files has gone skywards. There are also groups of people actively working on this shit, in the last 6mo-1year we had more developments in 3d gun printing than all the previous years combined. We are literally at the inflection point where tech is going exponential.

3d printing of firearms is a neat idea and it works, but they're not all that practical. 10 years from now, another story.

The problem was printed guns were either exact receiver designed to be made in aluminum or steel, but printed in plastic (too flimsy) or complete scratch builds like liberator, which were fairly raw and shitty and did not want to use any commonly available designs.

With rapid rise of 3d gun tech, literally every month there are more designs, more people working on them, choice evolves into much better options.

I'd say that at this point 3d printed guns offer shit not offered in the gun market and at a cheaper price. Case in point: Tec-9 for Glock mags (no prop tec mags needed and no manufacturer does this).

 

[Drix]

Not to mention, there is NOTHING illegal about an 80% lower, purchasing one, or 100 of them.

Folks.....does anyone actually believe that this move against P80 has any basis in law?

of course not

Its nothing more than an attempt by certain folks within the ATF to "Bend the Knee" to the likely Biden/Harris administration

Remember, we're talking about the agency who enforced a length of pull legal requirement based off an internal opinion memo that was shared by only one office in the administration and was never released to the public.

 

[straightshooterjake]

Except the warrant for an 80% will probably include "tools, fixtures and devices for finishing or assembly" which means they will look anyplace big enough for a roll pin or a drill bit.

I think it is likely that a a judge who will sign a warrant over a plastic paperweight will also agree that all electronics used to make the purchase can be recovered. This would include every computer, the phone in your pocket, and searching the premises well enough to find hidden memory cards. And since memory cards can be the size of a postage stamp, that will be a messy and invasive search.

I do strongly believe in telling anyone without a warrant to leave and come back when they have one. But anyone who takes this course should be aware that decisions may have consequences.

 

[M125X]

I think it is likely that a a judge who will sign a warrant over a plastic paperweight will also agree that all electronics used to make the purchase can be recovered. This would include every computer, the phone in your pocket, and searching the premises well enough to find hidden memory cards. And since memory cards can be the size of a postage stamp, that will be a messy and invasive search.

I do strongly believe in telling anyone without a warrant to leave and come back when they have one. But anyone who takes this course should be aware that decisions may have consequences.

A lot of us have 03 FFL’s here too. So we can be searched any time. Can’t tell them to F off.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I don't know how, DD's beef was exactly about sharing files and I was somewhat surprised that a lot of files are hosted in many different places and quality of those files has gone skywards. There are also groups of people actively working on this shit, in the last 6mo-1year we had more developments in 3d gun printing than all the previous years combined. We are literally at the inflection point where tech is going exponential.



The problem was printed guns were either exact receiver designed to be made in aluminum or steel, but printed in plastic (too flimsy) or complete scratch builds like liberator, which were fairly raw and shitty and did not want to use any commonly available designs.

With rapid rise of 3d gun tech, literally every month there are more designs, more people working on them, choice evolves into much better options.

I'd say that at this point 3d printed guns offer shit not offered in the gun market and at a cheaper price. Case in point: Tec-9 for Glock mags (no prop tec mags needed and no manufacturer does this).

Yeah, I've started to eat some of my words on this. A lot of the more robust designs still use metal, but in ways that are actually done intelligently.

The files question isn't dead. They'll keep attacking from the "files are weapons" direction and, at least for now, we still have the "files are speech" defense. I'm really grateful we have the encryption precedent.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I feel like 3D printers and some important files could be the next things on the ban list.

The files question isn't dead. They'll keep attacking from the "files are weapons" direction and, at least for now, we still have the "files are speech" defense. I'm really grateful we have the encryption precedent.

Good luck getting a ban on "important files" past SCOTUS and "strict scrutiny".

As you mention, the encryption precedent makes controls over domestic distribution of files difficult, they even gave up on trying to make ITAR apply to the export of encryption...

As for the printers themselves, the genie is fully out of the bottle there, with multiple competing open source controllers using off-the-shelf microcomputers, so no single throat to choke.

I don't know how, DD's beef was exactly about sharing files and I was somewhat surprised that a lot of files are hosted in many different places and quality of those files has gone skywards. There are also groups of people actively working on this shit, in the last 6mo-1year we had more developments in 3d gun printing than all the previous years combined. We are literally at the inflection point where tech is going exponential.

The problem was printed guns were either exact receiver designed to be made in aluminum or steel, but printed in plastic (too flimsy) or complete scratch builds like liberator, which were fairly raw and shitty and did not want to use any commonly available designs.

While US efforts were/are focused on lower receiver shells (due to ease of obtaining internals and uppers/slides), folk in Europe are making great progress in designs not requiring any firearms-specific parts (Imagine what PA Luty could've done with a filament printer!)

 

[bfm]

 

[straightshooterjake]

The files question isn't dead. They'll keep attacking from the "files are weapons" direction and, at least for now, we still have the "files are speech" defense. I'm really grateful we have the encryption precedent.

Good luck getting a ban on "important files" past SCOTUS and "strict scrutiny".

As you mention, the encryption precedent makes controls over domestic distribution of files difficult, they even gave up on trying to make ITAR apply to the export of encryption...

This question of files vs speech is a critical question that I have been following for a long time. Whenever people want to restrict pure information, I always consider printing it in a book. And it still counts as a book if it is designed to be read with character recognition, possibly including gibberish looking checksums, and/or barcodes. If it looks and feels like a book, then it's a book.

And when people want to ban books, I always suggest that we should have public book burnings to rid the world of this "degenerate art."

 

[Boris]

This question of files vs speech is a critical question that I have been following for a long time. Whenever people want to restrict pure information, I always consider printing it in a book. And it still counts as a book if it is designed to be read with character recognition, possibly including gibberish looking checksums, and/or barcodes. If it looks and feels like a book, then it's a book.

And when people want to ban books, I always suggest that we should have public book burnings to rid the world of this "degenerate art."

You can encode a whole shitload of data into a QR code, by shitload I mean like entire webgames where all the code is self-contained in the qr code that you can scan and launch browser to play them.

In many cases you don't need a lot of data. The shovel 10/22 receiver is 28 instructions/lines (we build 1022 ! ... (part Odin)). You can literally memorize it.

Yeah, I've started to eat some of my words on this. A lot of the more robust designs still use metal, but in ways that are actually done intelligently.

The files question isn't dead. They'll keep attacking from the "files are weapons" direction and, at least for now, we still have the "files are speech" defense. I'm really grateful we have the encryption precedent.

The last I checked entire repo is on github, there is a lot of shit, but it's all well organized and version tracked (about f***ing time) and stamped with keybase (about f***ing time)

There are a few builders that host their designs on their sites and have tube vids of tests, but those are fewer and specialized.

Also, the biggest win, people post actual models, not f***ing mesh, so you can take a model and easily mod/improve it, not just print it. That's a big winning trend.

 

[Mesatchornug]

You can encode a whole shitload of data into a QR code, by shitload I mean like entire webgames where all the code is self-contained in the qr code that you can scan and launch browser to play them.

In many cases you don't need a lot of data. The shovel 10/22 receiver is 28 instructions/lines (we build 1022 ! ... (part Odin)). You can literally memorize it.



The last I checked entire repo is on github, there is a lot of shit, but it's all well organized and version tracked (about f***ing time) and stamped with keybase (about f***ing time)

There are a few builders that host their designs on their sites and have tube vids of tests, but those are fewer and specialized.

Also, the biggest win, people post actual models, not f***ing mesh, so you can take a model and easily mod/improve it, not just print it. That's a big winning trend.

I hadn't seen the 10/22 yet - great work!

On the files and videos - yeah, I've finally started watching those, and collecting some of the files. I have a couple projects in line for the winter, but I have a feeling some of that will follow soon. Between the GG I'd been sitting on, the MSLA printer I just bought, and the filament jobby that I'll be getting soon (yeah, I work backwards) it's time to start putting in a bit of time.

I think I'm most impressed right now by the work towards DIY etched rifling...

 

[Kevin_NH]

keybase (about f***ing time)

Speaking of which, the place to look for the latest development and STEP+STL files is Keybase.io

 

[DispositionMatrix]

The Cornell Review:
[Well Regulated] Polymer80 is just the beginning

The questions on everyone’s mind are “Why is this happening?” and “Why is it happening now?” There are two important legal concepts to layout in order to begin answering the first question: constructive possession and Chevron deference.

<Explanations of each>

Now that the basic structure of how this situation came to be has been explained, the only question is “Why now?”. Although theories abound, there is no definitive answer. Many have speculated that it has to do with Obama-era holdovers within the ATF or the presidential election signaling to the agency that in just over a month Biden will give them free rein to do whatever they want. While the exact timing is likely due to numerous factors, many of which we don’t even know about, the simplest explanation is that it had to happen eventually. There are very few things that governments dislike more than looking stupid and looking weak. Items which allow citizens to achieve functionally identical ends through alternative means demonstrate just how much power the government has in practice and not just through perception. Coincidentally, less than a month ago, a documentary was released by Popular Front featuring the founder of Deterrence Dispensed, an organization specializing in homemade firearms. At the time of writing, the documentary has over 600,000 views, and while many if not most of those are from people already familiar with homemade guns, it served to illustrate the point that if there is a will there is a way. That is something that any government seeking to exercise control over the people fears: that if the people have the will, they will find the way.

 

[mikeyp]

Cross posting with the Pro 2A meme thread

 

[KBCraig]

A lot of us have 03 FFL’s here too. So we can be searched any time. Can’t tell them to F off.

This is incorrect. If an ATF compliance agent shows up at an 03's house, you can very well tell them to F off. Inspection of a CRFFL is limited to once a year, and at the licensee's option (not the ATF's), it can be held at the ATF office instead.

Now, if an ATF enforcement agent shows up and has a warrant, it's a whole other can of worms.

 

[namedpipes]

This is incorrect. If an ATF compliance agent shows up at an 03's house, you can very well tell them to F off. Inspection of a CRFFL is limited to once a year, and at the licensee's option (not the ATF's), it can be held at the ATF office instead.

Now, if an ATF enforcement agent shows up and has a warrant, it's a whole other can of worms.

Showing up at the Boston ATF office (in the Tip O'Neil Federal Building) with a panel truck filled with guns... And them having to let you in with them...

Would be totally worth it.

 

[M125X]

This is incorrect. If an ATF compliance agent shows up at an 03's house, you can very well tell them to F off. Inspection of a CRFFL is limited to once a year, and at the licensee's option (not the ATF's), it can be held at the ATF office instead.

Now, if an ATF enforcement agent shows up and has a warrant, it's a whole other can of worms.

Thank you, I stand corrected.

 

[KBCraig]

Showing up at the Boston ATF office (in the Tip O'Neil Federal Building) with a panel truck filled with guns... And them having to let you in with them...

Would be totally worth it.

That's the right response to a CRFFL audit request: "How am I going to get all these guns into the federal building?"

ATF: "Ummm... just bring your bound book. That's all we need to see."

 

[AHM]

That's the right response to a CRFFL audit request: "How am I going to get all these guns into the federal building?"

ATF: "Ummm... just bring your bound book. That's all we need to see."

Someone already posted that Security Metal Detector/X-Ray Checkpoint video clip
from the Matrix recently, so I'm not gonna bother...

 

[snax]

This appeared in my feed. Didn't read thru posts to see if dupe:

If ATF Comes A Knocking, Only Surrender Your 80% Frame or Receiver Under Protest!

As many in the Firearms Community are aware, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) raided Polymer80, Inc last week and since then, there is at least one report of a customer…

blog.princelaw.com

...it is important that any individual confronted by ATF regarding this newly minted interpretation, advise the agent that he/she is surrendering the items under protest, that you do not consent to the forfeiture or destruction of your property, and that you require a property receipt from ATF...

 

[JRT]

This appeared in my feed. Didn't read thru posts to see if dupe:

If ATF Comes A Knocking, Only Surrender Your 80% Frame or Receiver Under Protest!

As many in the Firearms Community are aware, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) raided Polymer80, Inc last week and since then, there is at least one report of a customer…

blog.princelaw.com

Josh Prince is a legend in Pennsylvania gun rights circles. He has consistently pummeled our tyrannical AG in court not only maintaining our rights but winning new ones.

 

[DispositionMatrix]

Josh Prince is a legend in Pennsylvania gun rights circles. He has consistently pummeled our tyrannical AG in court not only maintaining our rights but winning new ones.

Examples?

 

[JRT]

Examples?

I will give you one of each. A recent court case overturned the longstanding legal doctrine allowing police to make contact or search a person known to have a gun. The gun could be concealed, open carried or even brandished. The case stemmed from a man under surveillance who brandished a weapon at a 7-11 and lead to a search and arrest for other crimes. The case was tossed and the new legal precedent was established. Police may not approach you for having a firearm on your person. The assumption has to be that the firearm is legal. The US Supreme Court denied to hear the Commonwealths appeal.

On the preservation of right his group took our tyrannical AG, who makes Maura Healy look like a centrist, to court when he tried to stop the direct sale of 80% lowers in the Commonwealth. The AG without legislative action attempted to change law via a letter or proclamation that 80% pieces of polymer had to be transferred like any other firearm. It stood as law for less than a month and was argued in our commonwealth court and won by Josh Prince’s legal group.

 

[JLopez071]

Does Josh Prince have a brother who is willing to move to Massachusetts?

 

[CrackPot]

​ View this email in your browser

​

​ Statement to Independent Dealers & Distributors on Buy Build Shoot Kits™ As you may be aware, Polymer80 has just been notified that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) has recently taken the position that Polymer80’s “Buy Build Shoot” Kits constitute, among other things, “firearms” under federal law. Polymer80 has worked responsibly and diligently over this past week to gather pertinent data and assess ATF’s new apparent stance on those kits. Unfortunately, Polymer80 has had only limited information made available to it. Indeed, at times it has seemed that the media has been privy to more information than Polymer80 as to ATF’s activities, views, and decisions. Nevertheless, Polymer80 strongly disagrees with ATF’s stated position and is prepared to take every step necessary and appropriate to address it. While the situation continues to evolve, out of an abundance of caution, Polymer80 has voluntarily suspended all sales and assembly of Buy Build Shoot Kits. Nonetheless, Polymer80 will continue to fight for the lawful sale and distribution of its products and the inalienable rights of its independent dealers and customers. Polymer80 deeply values its relationships with you and looks forward to the continuation and enhancement of the business that we have conducted and will continue to conduct. Dated: Dayton, Nevada December 17, 2020

 

[namedpipes]

They should have put them on super sale. Get the units out the door. “Super sale until they are gone!”

Just separate out the kits into the individual products and modify their sales software to divide purchases into separate invoices and ship separately. Just work it out to the same "kit" price.

 

[AHM]

They should have put them on super sale. Get the units out the door. “Super sale until they are gone!”

"2020: the year with two Black Fridays".