ATF Raids Polymer 80

Broccoli Iglesias

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The jump from “80% lowers aren’t firearms,” to “the kit you’re selling has tools & parts to complete the 80% lower in it, so we’re going to raid your business” is what interests me here.
Then they should raid HD and Lowes, because they sell everything you need to build a shotgun. No special tools needed, you can even build it while walking around the store.

They also sell nice big sheets of metal = 0% lowers.

to-say-these-guns-were-crude-was-an-immense-understatement-nevertheless-they-could-be-made-in-...jpg

The nicer version:

download (6).jpeg
 

jkelly1229

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I think they just stopped selling frames and jigs together with those kits.
 

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AHM

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i love the narrative -
ATF suspects Polymer80 of breaking firearms laws
'suspects' and then raids the business. ain`t it good to be feds.
Chill.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): So how can you sit here and tell us, ‘why should I investigate the President of the United States’ if you’re not even aware of the facts concerning the president using the pardon or commutation power to swap asylum for the witness?​
BARR: Because we require a reliable predicate before we open a criminal investigation.​
 

cathouse01

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And will they stop at just Polymer80? Many of the 80% sellers provide complete build kits (admittedly without a jig). What’s interesting is I bought a build kit from Midway last year that had everything to build a 7.62x39mm AR, including an 80% lower (given all the issues with7.62x39 ARs, I wanted to try one on the cheap). Just out of curiosity, I went back to my order and clicked on the product and the product page can no longer be found, they removed it completely from the site. Normally they’ll leave the product page up, even for things that are “Not Available - One Time Run”. Could be they are trying to avoid the Polymer80 treatment.
 

Horrible

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I think they just stopped selling frames and jigs together with those kits.
So, because they sell the frames with the jog and a drill bit they are saying that they are trafficking firearms across state lines? Is that a joke? An 80% is a fu(kin paperweight
 

m_n_x

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F'ing paywall. Anyone care to CTRL+C/CTRL+V?

The gist of it:


Federal agents on Thursday raided one of the nation’s largest manufacturers of ghost-gun parts, a sign that federal law enforcement is cracking down on kits that allow people to make weapons at home.

The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place.

The probe focuses on Polymer80’s “Buy Build Shoot Kit,” which includes the parts to build a “ghost” handgun. The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application. That means it would have to be stamped with a serial number and couldn’t be sold to consumers who haven’t first passed a background check.

Polymer80 chief executive David Borges didn’t return phone calls or texts seeking comment Thursday evening.

Agents seized records and other evidence in Thursday’s raid in Dayton, close to Carson City, a law-enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation said. No Polymer80 employees were arrested and no charges have been filed.

The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents. Last year, a 16-year-old killed two fellow students and wounded three others at Saugus High School in Southern California with a homemade handgun.

Thursday’s raid is the most significant action against a ghost-gun company to date, according to the law-enforcement officials, and suggests the federal government is scrutinizing the growing industry.

Homemade ghost guns have grown in popularity in recent years and can’t be traced in criminal investigations because they lack serial numbers. Law-enforcement officials say they appeal to people who can’t pass background checks.

When people buy fully made guns from dealers, the weapons have serial numbers and purchasers must go through a background check.

Approximately 10,000 ghost guns were recovered by law e nforcement in 2019, according to the warrant application. As part of the investigation, the ATF identified multiple Polymer80 customers who were prohibited from buying guns because of prior criminal convictions.

The starting point for building a ghost gun is an “unfinished receiver,” a metal or polymer piece that houses the firing mechanism. It can be purchased without a background check, because the ATF doesn’t classify the part as a firearm. Buyers can finish the receiver with a drill press or a computerized metal-cutting machine and then add the remaining pieces to complete the gun.

The ATF previously gave Polymer80 permission to sell unfinished receivers. But the Buy Build Shoot Kits, which are advertised as having “all the necessary components to build a complete…pistol” weren’t submitted to the agency for approval, according to the application for the search warrant. These kits can be “assembled into fully functional firearms in a matter of minutes,” the warrant application says.
 

PaulR

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jpk

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So,
"Kit = BAD"
"Ala' Carte = GOOD"

Problem is that ATF's fantasy doesnt comply with law.

the only thing under law that is considered to be a firearm is the "reciever"

And a reciever isnt a firearm until it greater than 80% completed

They could sell their 80% lowers with belts, holsters, mags AND AMMO and it still wouldnt be a firearm so long as the reciever isnt more than 80% finished.

Only way to solve these issues is to address the problem of judges issueing questionable warrants

In the meantime the ATF has probably confiscated the sales lists/etc of P80 and wont be giving that data back
 

enbloc

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Problem is that ATF's fantasy doesnt comply with law.

the only thing under law that is considered to be a firearm is the "reciever"

And a reciever isnt a firearm until it greater than 80% completed

They could sell their 80% lowers with belts, holsters, mags AND AMMO and it still wouldnt be a firearm so long as the reciever isnt more than 80% finished.

Only way to solve these issues is to address the problem of judges issueing questionable warrants

In the meantime the ATF has probably confiscated the sales lists/etc of P80 and wont be giving that data back
Nailed it.
 

TC McQuade

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Truth about guns story

BREAKING: ATF Raids Polymer80, Cracking Down on ‘Ghost Gun’ Build Kits


 

teamRR

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This is bullshit really. It's a reciever or not a reciever.

They already said it wasn't a reciever.

Manufacturering your own guns is legal provided the end result does not violate existing law, ie its not a new full auto for the unlicensed owner.

On the flip side, if one supports Brady & background checks it's hard to logically support 80% kits without a background check.

I do not support Brady for the record and really don't think it gets us anything other than infringement. Basically in my eyes the bad guys always manage to do bad things.

But I do recognize it's very likely since the improvements and proliferation of these products the average thug probably has more options available for a Glock than ever before. There is no doubt someone in every major city is cranking out wonderfully machined examples of these by the case, for the black market. Before the inventory for a gun trafficker would have been largely piecemeal, now the supply chain is nice and smooth.
 

PappyM3

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Problem is that ATF's fantasy doesnt comply with law.

...

And a reciever isnt a firearm until it greater than 80% completed

...

There is nothing in federal law that stipulates “80%”. At what point a piece of metal or plastic becomes a receiver is very open ended and the ATF has broad regulatory authority in determining that on a per-gun basis. However, it is BS if they approved P80s by themselves.
 

jpk

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There is nothing in federal law that stipulates “80%”. At what point a piece of metal or plastic becomes a receiver is very open ended and the ATF has broad regulatory authority in determining that on a per-gun basis. However, it is BS if they approved P80s by themselves.

You may be correct that nothing points specifically to 80% but it has been the arbitrary threshold well established by ATF and published and updated for many years as the line in the sand that distinguishes firearm or something that can readily be made to be a firearm from something that is not as per GCA


What is an “80%” or “unfinished" receiver?



“80% receiver,” “80% finished,” “80% complete” and “unfinished receiver” are all terms referring to an item that some may believe has not yet reached a stage of manufacture that meets the definition of "firearm frame" or "receiver" according to the Gun Control Act (GCA). These are not statutory terms and ATF does not use or endorse them.


Are “80%” or “unfinished” receivers illegal?
Receiver blanks that do not meet the definition of a "firearm" are not subject to regulation under the Gun Control Act (GCA). ATF has long held that items such as receiver blanks, "castings" or "machined bodies" in which the fire-control cavity area is completely solid and un-machined have not reached the "stage of manufacture" which would result in the classification of a firearm according to the GCA.
The following three photos are provided as examples. The first receiver has a solid, un-machined fire-control cavity area with no holes or dimples for the selector, trigger, or hammer pins. It does not meet the GCA definition of a firearm. The second receiver, shown from the top, likewise has a solid, un-machined fire-control cavity area. It does not meet the GCA definition of a firearm. The third receiver has a partially machined fire-control cavity and does meet the GCA definition of a firearm.

receiverblankscomparisonpictures-10-23-14.png
 
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FrugalFannie

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PappyM3

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You may be correct that nothing points specifically to 80% but it has been the arbitrary threshold well established by ATF and published and updated for many years as the line in the sand that distinguishes firearm or something that can readily be made to be a firearm from something that is not as per GCA
...

“80%” is as made up as what constitutes the 80% for any particular gun. An “80%” AK or 1911 requires far more work to complete than an 80% AR. And an 80% AR is more work than an 80% Glock.
None of them are actually 80% complete. It’s all just an arbitrary assessment by the ATF on a per-gun basis.
 

KBCraig

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The gist of it:


Federal agents on Thursday raided one of the nation’s largest manufacturers of ghost-gun parts, a sign that federal law enforcement is cracking down on kits that allow people to make weapons at home.

"Cracking down" on something that is perfectly legal -- both making at home, and selling the parts to do so.
 

jpk

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“80%” is as made up as what constitutes the 80% for any particular gun. An “80%” AK or 1911 requires far more work to complete than an 80% AR. And an 80% AR is more work than an 80% Glock.
None of them are actually 80% complete. It’s all just an arbitrary assessment by the ATF on a per-gun basis.

There has to be a threshold between an amorphous lump of metal/plastic and something that can readily be rendered to be a firearm according to the GCA wrt manufacturing

The ATF has asserted/established for many years that the threshold is "80%" and provided and posted examples on their website

The point being that the law refers to "Readily Converted"

Hours of work doesnt = "Readily Converted"

I've seen/spoken with a number of people who've finished off one of the P80 handgun frames and NONE of them had an experience that involved anything less than MANY MANY hours to produce something that actually functioned
 

PappyM3

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There has to be a threshold between an amorphous lump of metal/plastic and something that can readily be rendered to be a firearm according to the GCA wrt manufacturing

The ATF has asserted/established for many years that the threshold is "80%" and provided and posted examples on their website

...

And none are actually 80% complete. It’s just an arbitrary determination by the ATF depending on the gun. That is the point. When it comes to 80%ers, the ATF has broad regulatory authority to make arbitrary determinations.
 
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