ATF Proposed Rule Change for Frames and Receivers

[teamRR]

My reply was in reference to the claim it also would be the upper going forward. I have not yet seen anything in the doc stating the upper would become a regulated part.

Ahhh ok that was my point.

I think, and this document is hundreds of pages I don't have time to analyze, everyone who are saying uppers will be serialized is doing so based on the split receiver stuff but haven't noted or are intentionally ignoring where they talk about already known/decided models.

Some folks haven't read that far, other organizations I think know but want to cause panic and gain support - like that GOA communication where they want donations.

I have no love for for this bullshit, but details about AR uppers do not seem to be changing based on this document. There are other things to get up in arms about.

But it is true, we really won't know what they actually say everyone needs to do for a couple months. They might re-approve a bunch of the p80 kits on the market today for instance as "not a firearm", doesn’t seem like they will, but they could. Or they could randomly pick at some common gun parts 2 years down the road.

 

[cathouse01]

But the "rule" really isnt confusing at all

Its overly verbose (intentionally) with examples.....some of which are null and void because as they have ALWAYS done.....they are ALWAYS going to apply the MOST Restrictive criterio a possible......its a trap......

The entire point of these "Rules" is to impact behavior of citizens and business to do/not do something......

To maximize the above they intentionally write these rules to be a broad as possible to maximize their power/effect/control.....so that people/businesses have to reach out to them for "clarification" or "determinations" on what is permissable/not.......while at same time they prosecute the shit out of a couple citizens/busineses and make public examples of them for maximum effect.

One thing I can agree with you on is that the rule, as finalized, still leaves it up to the Director to make the final determination of what it means for an incomplete frame/lower to be “readily” completed. They claim they define the term readily, but it is all weasel words and it allows the director to claim that anything that a CNC machine can complete could be considered “readily” completable. So it will be left to the Director to decide, for which Biden has already nominated another gun grabber like Chipman.

 

[cathouse01]

Bicker all you want but the real world application of the rule is going to leave you with exactly two options

Comply with the most restrictive language/conditions clearly enumerated in the rule

OR

Pay a lawyer large sums of money to plead your case for you while you contemplate the consequences of poor choices from your cozy federal prison cell.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whr_MWpmn24

OK, I said I agree with you that the Director will be able to declare anything they want as being “readily” completed. Thus any example or other aspect is actually moot. Since it is left to the opinion of the Director, it will all be at his/her discretion. If the new Director is a gun grabber like Chipman was, absolutely everything will be declared readily completable, independent of how/what the rest of the rule reads. Not sure what you you think I’m bickering about.

 

[drgrant]

lol atf can’t even effectively enforce 90% of its existing bullshit don’t see how this will somehow be different. Most of this will amount to atf virtue signaling..... but it will disrupt industry regardless

 

[42!]

good review of where we are and what we know.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What this will do is instantly shut down mail order and gun show 80% lowers. The AG's AR ruling was even more dubious, but has been nearly 100% effective at taking new ARs off the market, so "unenforceability" is not a strong argument.

There will likely be businesses that feel they are operating 100% within the law who get a friendly ATF visit "nice life you have here, would be a shame if you got indicted.....". Chances are many that agree with the overreach will shut down and that will be the end of it. Those who insist they are following the law as written will likely be Maadi Griffined.

 

[teamRR]

"Ghost Guns" are the new boogie man, lamestream media has a field day with it and are only too eager to report on it every opportunity

Dont be surprised when some vendor continues to operate business as usual, the ATF shuts them down, takes their customer list and makes examples out of all of the above.....whether or not they were purchased pre or post rule going into effect.

All in the name of "Deterrent"

Then turn around and claim they need a larger budget for "Enforcement"

I don't think any of this matters from a consumer legal standpoint unless it's suppressor(s)/parts. They are not making something illegal, are saying serial numbers and a background check is required, isn't like buying full auto parts on eBay.

If you are felon, sure, you could be made an example of. For the rest of us the only liability if say kits remained available in some questionable manner, is ATF might go take one to establish a case against the vendor (which is insane given they could as easily order one online themselves to create such evidence but yes they have gone this path before, in a very isolated manner, over things that were not illegal to possess).

 

[cathouse01]

And already the rule is having an impact on the price of 80% lowers. Three months ago I bought a three pack of billet aluminum 80% lowers for $238 (bit less than $80 each). Now the exact same lower from the same vendor is going for $130 each (an over 60% increase) and you can no longer get them in a three pack.

 

[teamRR]

And already the rule is having an impact on the price of 80% lowers. Three months ago I bought a three pack of billet aluminum 80% lowers for $238 (bit less than $80 each). Now the exact same lower from the same vendor is going for $130 each (an over 60% increase) and you can no longer get them in a three pack.

I'd call that potentially a bad vendor. Sure they are in business and allowed to charge whatever they want, but I just checked the $55 models I ordered before the atf release, same price. Seems similar for p80 stuff, although some did sell out quick.

 

[cathouse01]

I'd call that potentially a bad vendor. Sure they are in business and allowed to charge whatever they want, but I just checked the $55 models I ordered before the atf release, same price. Seems similar for p80 stuff, although some did sell out quick.

I wouldn’t be surprise if there are across the board increases as the demand ramps up due to panic buying since, under the current regulatory cloud, I doubt if anyone will be interested in investing in any increased capacity.

 

[snd1t]

Joe Bob's got anderson anodized 80's for $55

Lots of other vendors in same/similar range

 

[teamRR]

Joe Bob's got anderson anodized 80's for $55

Lots of other vendors in same/similar range

Exactly and what they do have at say Rocky Brass, same prices.

I understand some retailers bumping prices if supply is constrained versus demand, but so soon, just one vendor, probably is trying to capitalize on the panic and that's kinda lame IMO.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'd call that potentially a bad vendor. Sure they are in business and allowed to charge whatever they want, but I just checked the $55 models I ordered before the atf release, same price. Seems similar for p80 stuff, although some did sell out quick.

Would you be a potentially bad vendor if you sold your house at market rather than for a fair markup? Or are the rule different when it's you money?

 

[teamRR]

Would you be a potentially bad vendor if you sold your house at market rather than for a fair markup? Or are the rule different when it's you money?

That's neither here nor there. Apples and screwdrivers. For starters a home seller isn't a vendor.

A better example, some car dealerships in this supply choked environment decided they are going to draw a line at list prices, no matter what that is the max they will sell a car for - they are in it for the long haul and do not want to gouge customers over a quick extra buck. They get a little more $$ than usual but not some arbitrary upcharge because "hey people will pay". Others sell for as much as they can charge, taking advantage of a bad situation. I say comparatively, it's obvious who the good and bad dealerships are.

When most vendors are still selling at the current market value and one tries to take advantage of bullshit government activity, bumping prices up significantly - especially in the 2A world where some vendors truly support the cause, its IMO significant too.

A company like Joe Bobs knows they are in it for the long term - hey nothing they can do about it if say Anderson raises prices, but they aren't doing it just because they can. And it probably does pay off for them in the long run. In the beginnings of the ammo crisis it similarly was obvious who the good and bad vendors were too, some immediately and extremely raised prices and others only very incrementally did over time.

 

[KBCraig]

3/4" black pipe is the new "80% shotgun".

 

[Uzi2]

My reply was in reference to the claim it also would be the upper going forward. I have not yet seen anything in the doc stating the upper would become a regulated part.

Until they amend their rules and make them one after someone rigs one up to work without a lower. Incrementalism is the name of their game.

I don't see any current or future attraction to 80% AR lowers anyway ( I'm not in favor at all of regulating them). It's a tinkerers hobby, I get it. People like building stuff, I get it. Thing is, I can buy a 100% stripped lower for half or less than an 80% any day of the week.

If confiscation ever comes, there's going to be some AWESOME gunfights and LOTS and LOTS of people are going to die, on their side and ours......THEY know it, and so does everyone else.

Whether my or others guns have serials or not is not going to make a hill of beans difference when/if the rubber meets the road.

Just like people talking about burying their guns......if it comes time to bury your guns, it is beyond time to have dug them up and have them close at hand for immediate use.

 

[AHM]

I wouldn’t be surprise if there are across the board increases as the demand ramps up due to panic buying ...

Did I hear someone say "panic buying"?

Hat tip: Instapundit reader Tweeker

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That's neither here nor there. Apples and screwdrivers. For starters a home seller isn't a vendor.

A better example, some car dealerships in this supply choked environment decided they are going to draw a line at list prices, no matter what that is the max they will sell a car for - they are in it for the long haul and do not want to gouge customers over a quick extra buck. They get a little more $$ than usual but not some arbitrary upcharge because "hey people will pay". Others sell for as much as they can charge, taking advantage of a bad situation. I say comparatively, it's obvious who the good and bad dealerships are.

When most vendors are still selling at the current market value and one tries to take advantage of bullshit government activity, bumping prices up significantly - especially in the 2A world where some vendors truly support the cause, its IMO significant too.

A company like Joe Bobs knows they are in it for the long term - hey nothing they can do about it if say Anderson raises prices, but they aren't doing it just because they can. And it probably does pay off for them in the long run. In the beginnings of the ammo crisis it similarly was obvious who the good and bad vendors were too, some immediately and extremely raised prices and others only very incrementally did over time.

That depends on how you define vendor, so we can just use the term "seller". A key difference though is the home seller is not concerned about his reputation for "Fair pricing", just closing the one deal. Ammo vendors, dealerships, etc. have to consider their "reputation as a seller". Purchasing limits are another example - it takes a vendor selling below full market more work to limit sales rather than selling all the inventory to the first arbitrageur who wants to take the full lot, but are playing a long term marketing strategy.

By definition, it is not possible to sell a product above market value. Arms length voluntary transactions define market value.

The answer reads to me (and it's just my opinion, yours may legitimately differ) as a long form of "hey, you're talking about my money there". No disrespect intended.

 

[teamRR]

That depends on how you define vendor, so we can just use the term "seller". A key difference though is the home seller is not concerned about his reputation for "Fair pricing", just closing the one deal. Ammo vendors, dealerships, etc. have to consider their "reputation as a seller". Purchasing limits are another example - it takes a vendor selling below full market more work to limit sales rather than selling all the inventory to the first arbitrageur who wants to take the full lot, but are playing a long term marketing strategy.

By definition, it is not possible to sell a product above market value. Arms length voluntary transactions define market value.

The answer reads to me (and it's just my opinion, yours may legitimately differ) as a long form of "hey, you're talking about my money there". No disrespect intended.

Not one to take offense, we are just talking.

I think a consumer who doesn't do their research (ie doesn't type "80% AR lower" into Google or their search of preference) or who just walks into the 1st dealership they visit and buys a new car, they can pay over market value. They are trusting the business is pricing the item in some fair ballpark.

The business may even distort facts or insinuate distorted info to create a rushed decision - "if you don't sign now I gotta warn you, I guarantee we will sell this in the next hour".. "Buy your 80% lowers (ammo, mags, whatever), last chance buy".

It's a business decision how these guys operate, absolutely. But my $$ goes to the long run shops, even if they are not quite the cheapest in good times. I do try to keep track of who was a dick in the bad times and avoid them down the road.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You have a good point about individuals being able to pay over market, but as a whole, if a dealer can sell all their inventory at a price it is likely not finding a few hundred or thousand people willing to pay over market.

You describe the Zig Ziglar "fear of loss" close. This is common in home remodeling from the chains (you almost always are offered a price that is good for today and today only and will never be allowed to buy at if you don't sign today). I haven't been to the Marlboro shows recently but there was a guy at several of them selling plate body armor with a big "about to be banned" sign he reused at every show.

I also deal with long run shops run by known good guys who don't treat each sale like a house or car sale with the goal being max profit on each one.

 

[silversquirrel]

Some one here posted these billet 80s
Last week, they were buy 4 get 2 free, but the deal was over on the day of Bidens announcement, and then were 79 ea. Limit 2.
Now they are on sale for 55 ea
10 bucks extra for black

AR15 80% Eco Billet Lower

Eco Billet 80% Lower

jlbillet.com

 

[allen-1]

Some one here posted these billet 80s
Last week, they were buy 4 get 2 free, but the deal was over on the day of Bidens announcement, and then were 79 ea. Limit 2.
Now they are on sale for 55 ea
10 bucks extra for black

AR15 80% Eco Billet Lower

Eco Billet 80% Lower

jlbillet.com

 

[Lowbird]

View attachment 605145

They had to change policy in the last year or so.

 

[silversquirrel]

View attachment 605145

That was not there April 11th.

 

[allen-1]

That was not there April 11th.

<shrug>...

Went to the page, because I'm dithering.

I bought my first AR when CT announced that they were going to make new purchases of ARs and "high capacity" firearms illegal. Bought a couple of them before that law took effect, (bought my first Glock then too, and 6 other firearms that I hadn't planned on buying).

My only regret about that period in time is that I didn't declare more magazines than I had so that I could legally have more high cap mags in CT - hindsight is 20/20 (and usually sober).

So, today, with this latest round of BS coming up - I have (3) declared ARs in CT, (2) ARs in GA that went through FFLs (4473 filed), and some number of ARs and/or AR pistols that have no paperwork, plus some number of stripped lowers that also have no paperwork.

Realistically speaking, I've got enough ARs and replacement parts to last my lifetime, plus some, (yeah - I've got magazines and ammo too).

BUT - what's my son gonna do in 20 years?

As I started with - I'm dithering...

 

[240Geezer]

Still DGAF.

 

[teamRR]

<shrug>...

Went to the page, because I'm dithering.

I bought my first AR when CT announced that they were going to make new purchases of ARs and "high capacity" firearms illegal. Bought a couple of them before that law took effect, (bought my first Glock then too, and 6 other firearms that I hadn't planned on buying).

My only regret about that period in time is that I didn't declare more magazines than I had so that I could legally have more high cap mags in CT - hindsight is 20/20 (and usually sober).

So, today, with this latest round of BS coming up - I have (3) declared ARs in CT, (2) ARs in GA that went through FFLs (4473 filed), and some number of ARs and/or AR pistols that have no paperwork, plus some number of stripped lowers that also have no paperwork.

Realistically speaking, I've got enough ARs and replacement parts to last my lifetime, plus some, (yeah - I've got magazines and ammo too).

BUT - what's my son gonna do in 20 years?

As I started with - I'm dithering...

If your son likes guns maybe he will move. And a lot can change in 20 years too.

 

[allen-1]

If your son likes guns maybe he will move. And a lot can change in 20 years too.

My son lives in Georgia, (that's one of the reasons we relocated here).

What I was trying to say, was that looking back at what happened in CT in 2014, I'd do things differently now. I'm trying to look forward, anticipating what the rewording by ATF means and what its impact will be.

For example, I have lower parts kits, spare springs, spare pins, spare bolt carrier groups, spare triggers - but are they going to become regulated items? If so, I'd rather have them on hand, for my son if not for me.

 

[Lowbird]

My son lives in Georgia, (that's one of the reasons we relocated here).

What I was trying to say, was that looking back at what happened in CT in 2014, I'd do things differently now. I'm trying to look forward, anticipating what the rewording by ATF means and what its impact will be.

For example, I have lower parts kits, spare springs, spare pins, spare bolt carrier groups, spare triggers - but are they going to become regulated items? If so, I'd rather have them on hand, for my son if not for me.

That's how I've been thinking of it. If they go full tard and try to go serialized on everything. Nice to have a handful of each as "extra".

It'd be god damn fantastic is the gov wasn't making me buy stuff by banning shit faster than I can save for a GG3... Really pissing me off here. Lol

 

[teamRR]

Really if they want to know why in the US we own 400+ million guns (or waaay more) - all they need to do is look at gun control pushes and buying patterns.

I'd probably only own a couple AR15s and a couple AR10s, 10 mags for each platform maybe (as far as the models they really hate), modest amounts of ammo in storage. That is if they weren't threatening to ban them every so many years. Instead I've got piles of them, additional lowers, spare parts of every sort, huge caches of mags new in the packaging, a couple of every 9mm p80 they made, 80% AR lowers, thousands of rounds particularly of ammo they dislike, etc etc

Really if they wanted to harm the industry, slow the arming of America, they would be better off just shutting up about it. Nobody would have 20 lowers sitting in their safe, unserialized rifles buried in the woods, etc etc if it wasn't for (the typically failed) attempts at gun control.