ATF Formally releases new proposed definition of "Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms

[MaverickNH]

Justice Department Proposes Rule to Curb Spread of ‘Ghost Guns’

The agency wants to curb “ghost guns” in part because the firearms don’t bear the serial numbers used by law enforcement to track down criminals.

www.wsj.com

“More than 23,000 firearms without serial numbers were recovered by law enforcement from potential crime scenes from 2016 through 2020, the Justice Department said.”

FBI executed 450,000 trace requests in 2019, 373,000 in 2015 and 1200-1500 per day in 2018. So let’s be conservative and say, 1000 trace request per day for 5 years, or 1.825 million trace requests. “Ghost Guns” account for <1% of crime gun trace requests 2016-2020. And those 23k “ghost guns” amount to 0.005% of guns in the US, or 5 in 100k guns.

Biden’s entire gun control platform is focused on symbolic gestures that will markedly infringe on the RKBA.

 

[paul73]

Frankly, I don't agree with having a definition at all. The ATF can go f*** themselves. "Shall not be infringed". Get rid of all that regulation shit. This is Constitutionally protected. I don't see how much clearer this can get. You guys are acting like you're happy the ATF is allowing you to keep your 80%ers.

Get rid of regulations- what a silly idea. People love regulating and been subjected to regulations. It brings structure to their lives.
Government is never big enough and bigger it gets more new regulations it needs to justify the next request to increase their staff. It is like a cancer and there is no cure to that.

 

[AHM]

“More than 23,000 firearms without serial numbers were recovered by law enforcement from potential crime scenes from 2016 through 2020, the Justice Department said.”

You know that essentially all of them were defaced factory models.
Defaced factory models whose serial numbers were subsequently recovered
by the boys down in Ballistics with the old acid-etch technique
from Dick Tracy's Crimestopper's Notebook.

Firearms Serial Restoration Replacement Chemicals - Lynn Peavey Company

Serial number restoration by the etching method is commonly used to recover obliterated serial numbers or other markings on firearms and other metallic weapons. When a serial number is stamped […]

lynnpeavey.com

 

[kevin9]

You know that essentially all of them were defaced factory models.
Defaced factory models whose serial numbers were subsequently recovered
by the boys down in Ballistics with the old acid-etch technique
from Dick Tracy's Crimestopper's Notebook.

Firearms Serial Restoration Replacement Chemicals - Lynn Peavey Company

Serial number restoration by the etching method is commonly used to recover obliterated serial numbers or other markings on firearms and other metallic weapons. When a serial number is stamped […]

lynnpeavey.com

Or were pre-October 22, 1968.

 

[cathouse01]

As others have pointed out, the gun grabbers are doing their standard ploy of conflating numbers. Just like they always include suicides in gun violence deaths, they include standard commercial guns that have had their serial numbers defaced and pre 1968 guns that weren’t required to have a serial number in their count of “ghost guns”. They also use the misleading "recovered by law enforcement from potential crime scenes”, not guns used in crimes or even guns at crime scenes, but guns at potential crime scenes. So they raid some poor innocent schmuck’s house and find a PMF, it’s listed as a ghost gun found at a potential crime scene.

The implication in the media and from the anti’s is that gun traces are an import part of criminal investigations when the facts are that they are almost always useless. They will trace down to the FFL that originally sold the gun and the original purchaser and then end there. That's because the gun was stolen or lost or privately sold to someone that can no longer be tracked down. The media implies that it’s common for a gun to be found at a crime scene and then an ATF trace leads the cops to the perpetrator, when that is almost never the case.

They also fail to report on the number of times a gun trace has resulted in actually solving a particular crime. Most of the gun trace data is used by the ATF to identify gun traffickers and not to solve a specific crime. Even the ATF admits this.

But officials in several smaller South Carolina jurisdictions said that once officers know who pulled the trigger, they have fulfilled their obligation — there’s no need for them to find out where the gun came from. Even if the offender was prohibited from possessing a gun, there are enough ways for criminals to get around the system — by inheriting the gun, or buying it from a private seller — that it seems unlikely that a trace report will yield useful information, they said.

Brian King, a spokesperson for the 8th Judicial Circuit Solicitor’s Office, which prosecutes cases in four counties in the northwestern part of the state, said that the files police send to his office rarely contain trace reports. “There’s no value for us in determining where or when a gun was purchased,” he said. “ATF would love it if all these other people would do all this other work. It doesn’t add any value to a case
we’re making.”

This is just another attempt to make life more difficult for law-abiding gun owners that will have no effect on crime.

 

[cathouse01]

So just notice another little tweak in this proposal. They are getting rid of the 20 year limit on FFL record retention. They will now require all FFLs (including C&Rs) to maintain their records forever (until they go out of business). They have already ruled that these records can be kept electronically (see ATF rule 2016-1 dated April 19, 2016). So they are now setting it up so that they can go into all the FFLs and collect all their electronic records when they start up their firearms registry (which we know they desperately want).

Also Rule 2016-1 says:

Upon discontinuance of business, the licensee must send required records to the ATF Out-of-Business Center in accordance with 27 CFR 478.127. The licensee must print out the required records or download them to a physical storage device (as defined in paragraph 5) or, at the discretion of the licensee, both. The complete printout or download must provide an American Standard Code for Information Interchange (ASCII) text file (in conformity with industry standards) containing all acquisition and disposition records, and a file description. The complete printout or downloaded ASCII text file (and file description) must contain all information prescribed by regulation. The NTC converts these files into image files not searchable by name.

The claim that these image files are not searchable is laughable at best. With current AI technology it is a piece of cake to search an image file for any arbitrary piece of text you want. And even with older OCR technology it’s easy enough to convert an image back to a CSV file and then load it into any database you want.

 

[teamRR]

There is no doubt that criminal enterprises are cranking out guns via 80% recievers. We see them popping up in arrests regularly. To deny that is head-in-sand.

But the question is really, are crimes increasing as a result? Are they unable to pinpoint perpetrators that were routinely charged before the advent of these products? My belief is nothing has changed from this perspective, so any change in the legality of the kits isn't going to have an impact beyond infringement for the law abiding.

 

[KBCraig]

Define readily convertible please.

You're asking the right question. The answer is, "Whatever the powers that be want it to be."

 

[KBCraig]

They are clarifying the definition of frame in a way we all can agree on. Particularly, the frame of an AR is the lower. The upper will continue to be an unserialized part that is not considered a firearm frame or receiver. So I can still get uppers on the internet.

I don't agree with that definition. Neither does the law.

And you're dreaming if you think that an upper won't fall under their new definition of "firearm".

 

[teamRR]

I don't agree with that definition. Neither does the law.

And you're dreaming if you think that an upper won't fall under their new definition of "firearm".

I agree on the BS that goes on, but no that's not what is happening as far as uppers becoming serialized/controlled.

If you see say page 86 of the actual document, looking at the AR illustration, you will see they did not redefine how complete recievers are defined or create a 2nd type per firearm. They only more completely documented it with examples, which was because of the discrepancy that has come up where certain guns seem to have no definable reciever (ie ARs, the lowers don't meet the definition that is on paper currently).

None of this is good, but let's not fear monger. Down the road, if say they banned ARs I could totally see a move on uppers or BCGs or other parts even, but this isn't it.

 

[xtry51]

I just tried to leave a comment but the proposal is not listed on Regulations.gov

 

[fl4848]

Justice Department Proposes Rule to Curb Spread of ‘Ghost Guns’

The agency wants to curb “ghost guns” in part because the firearms don’t bear the serial numbers used by law enforcement to track down criminals.

www.wsj.com

“More than 23,000 firearms without serial numbers were recovered by law enforcement from potential crime scenes from 2016 through 2020, the Justice Department said.”

FBI executed 450,000 trace requests in 2019, 373,000 in 2015 and 1200-1500 per day in 2018. So let’s be conservative and say, 1000 trace request per day for 5 years, or 1.825 million trace requests. “Ghost Guns” account for <1% of crime gun trace requests 2016-2020. And those 23k “ghost guns” amount to 0.005% of guns in the US, or 5 in 100k guns.

Biden’s entire gun control platform is focused on symbolic gestures that will markedly infringe on the RKBA.

View attachment 480445

What's RKBA?

 

[fl4848]

Does this mean that ghost gun companies are now out of business?

I think I saw at-home machines that make these gun parts. Are they no longer available?

 

[fl4848]

And how will this help with stopping Crime?

It helps expand Communist crime. Stopping crime never entered their minds.

 

[fl4848]

The funniest part to all this is how does the gov't arrest a ghost?

If you don't know they're out there, how do you confiscate them?

 

[not new guy]

The Great Biden Exorcism.

 

[MaverickNH]

What's RKBA?

Right to Keep and Bear Arms

 

[murf4321]

lol, so the ATF is going to try to start interpreting everything as a firearm. Which will be immediately blocked when an injunction is filed, & then it will be kicked around in the courts, and then in the end we’ll be back to square 1. I’m sure criminals on Blue Hill Ave will be immediately serializing their firearms so they can transfer them to their gang banging hood rat brethren via FFL.

Complete waste of time

 

[MGnoob]

It’s all just make believe guys, once they figure out what kind of bullshit they’re making up we’ll figure out a way around it..
Then It can work its way through the courts.

The double speak is kind of funny. But the more they talk out of both sides of their mouth the more “loopholes” there are....

99% of Americans will just go to a gun store and buy a goddamn gun..The remaining 1% can still buy a grenade launchers and machine guns

 

[June4th]

OK then. I'm gonna go over my physics textbooks and start building my phased plasma rifle in the 40Watt range. Federal or state laws got nothing on me.

 

[teamRR]

Does this mean that ghost gun companies are now out of business?

I think I saw at-home machines that make these gun parts. Are they no longer available?

If this becomes "the law", and its really not a law rather a reinterpretation, it is just going to result in a series of moves and counter-moves over the same thing. In the end it will remain legal to build your own guns and some tool(s) will be available and capable of accomplishing it in your garage. But I doubt it would ever be quite as easy and cost effective as it is today, but who knows - maybe we will end up with something better.

 

[Marty McFly]

basically upper receivers and pistols slides would become firearms and require a NICS check to purchase, making it virtually impossible to build 80% pistols and ar's

Yep gay

 

[71montess]

The ATF change in interpretation is just another example of liberal Democrats men identifying as women.

 

[murf4321]

I’m sure the NICS system wont be a complete AIDS shitshow if all these parts now have to go through background checks. Think the delays were bad now?

democrats gonna democrat. Morons.

 

[Quite_Exasperated]

I wonder what happens with items ordered pre-Regulation...asking for a friend.

 

[cathouse01]

I don't agree with that definition. Neither does the law.

And you're dreaming if you think that an upper won't fall under their new definition of "firearm".

Read the entire proposal. They specifically call out AR type guns and say the the frame/receiver is the lower. They even give an illustration:



(v) AR-15-type, and Beretta AR-70-type firearms: the lower part of the weapon that provides housing for the trigger mechanism and hammer.

It’s clear that the upper is not considered a frame or receiver and would not be considered a firearm. At least in this current interpretation. Nothing says they can’t change it again in the future, but this proposal leaves uppers alone.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

This is yet another racist attempt by the Biden and ATF to make gun ownership so expensive, it disarms people of the lower economic ladder. A staggering 18.8% of African-Americans live below the poverty line. The median income in 2019 for a black family is 45,438. These people can hardly afford hundreds of dollars in fees the government levies just to have the ability to defend themselves. 10%-11% tax is levied on the sale of firearms making them less accessible to minorities. With Polymer80, a handy and thrifty(think Black Friday sales) individual could build themselves a Glock for less than $400. Now Biden wants to remove that possibility by forcing people to "serialize" their guns within a limited amount of time. Imagine gunsmiths getting overloaded with orders to serialize. Imagine the price they will charge when people have no choice but to pay or go defenseless.
In other words, Joe Biden is the new Jim Crow.

 

[KBCraig]

Read the entire proposal. They specifically call out AR type guns and say the the frame/receiver is the lower. They even give an illustration:

View attachment 480785

(v) AR-15-type, and Beretta AR-70-type firearms: the lower part of the weapon that provides housing for the trigger mechanism and hammer.

It’s clear that the upper is not considered a frame or receiver and would not be considered a firearm. At least in this current interpretation. Nothing says they can’t change it again in the future, but this proposal leaves uppers alone.

They give examples, but the language of the proposed rule is not limited to those illustrations.

 

[MGnoob]

You can put the serial number on your own gun....There’s a depth and size requirement. But it can be achieved with a pocket knife or nail ...Personally I like laser engraving. But it really doesn’t matter

This is yet another racist attempt by the Biden and ATF to make gun ownership so expensive, it disarms people of the lower economic ladder. A staggering 18.8% of African-Americans live below the poverty line. The median income in 2019 for a black family is 45,438. These people can hardly afford hundreds of dollars in fees the government levies just to have the ability to defend themselves. 10%-11% tax is levied on the sale of firearms making them less accessible to minorities. With Polymer80, a handy and thrifty(think Black Friday sales) individual could build themselves a Glock for less than $400. Now Biden wants to remove that possibility by forcing people to "serialize" their guns within a limited amount of time. Imagine gunsmiths getting overloaded with orders to serialize. Imagine the price they will charge when people have no choice but to pay or go defenseless.
In other words, Joe Biden is the new Jim Crow.

Come on guys think of all the crimes they are going to prevent by making you put numbers on a piece of metal....Now theyll be able to track them right to the source!

 

[inkdesigner]

I’m sure the NICS system wont be a complete AIDS shitshow if all these parts now have to go through background checks. Think the delays were bad now?

democrats gonna democrat. Morons.

Don't think for an instant that this wasn't part of the end game. It will be a welcome consequence as far as the democRATS are concerned.